The "Psycho Girlfriend" Trope

And the gender thing, is that when women emotionally abuse men, it's normally recognised by other people as abuse.

While when men do it, lots of people really don't see that it's abuse. They think it's normal.

That's where abuse becomes a feminist issue.

But they wouldn't be asked over and over, if they just said once what the problem was.

You are pretending this discussion is about something other than what it is Wamster.

Oh I think I've been here before...

wamster - who's 'they' who don't fit? Are we talking about a specific couple now?

It's surprising that the stereotype is of a female psycho stalker when the actually reality is that women are overwhelmingly more likely to be stalked by men than vice versa.

ncvc

It is US data tho.

Patriarchy is maintained using classic abuse strategies. That's a gender issue. Wamster, when men complain about feminists, they're doing exactly what you've decried! "Why don't you want to stay in our kitchens and service us? We've taken care of you! How can you call us controlling, when all we've ever done is to love you? We only want what's best for you!"

garlic - for me, what really strikes me isn't whether or not I made sacrifices, it's that I didn't know I was making them. If you're in an emotionally abusive relationship, I don't think you're in a position to know whether you're being reasonable or not. I'm sure you are right that this applies exactly the same to men and women. I think the differences come out in how social expectations around that emotional abuse differ.

What you say about your DH not wanting to be in your marriage but saying he did sounds the same sort of thing - it is at best a fiction to pretend that serious relationships are as simple as the situation where you can just say 'I don't want to be with you' and the other person says 'ok thanks'.

Well, I suppose a couple would have to discuss the legal/financial side of things (if applicable) but this is not the same as asking them over and over why they don't want to know anymore, is it?

Sorry, I am finding it hard to reconcile the -what I believe to be feminist- idea of people needing to respect other people's space and boundaries with the idea that 'demanding' explanations as to why a person wishes to break up with another adult.

They don't fit; simple as that. People are entitled to end relationships without being asked over and over as to why.

Heh, I can just imagine either of my parents (married 40 years) accepting a "I've had enough" from the other one and nothing more.

Don't be so ridiculous.

Anyway, it suits The Patriarchy to have the fall back of calling a woman psycho or mental.

But LRD described a relationship in which she made sacrifices on the basis of his stated long-term plans. Then he cheated on her and gave her a sudden eviction order. That's not respectful. I don't blame LRD for not 'respecting' his sudden change of direction - although It sounds as if she did, at least in practical terms.

Mine kept making it obvious he didn't want to be in our marriage, but saying he did. That wasn't respectful either. I could hardly 'respect' his choice whilst he did one thing and said another!

On gender issues - I'm wary of generalising. I think as many women are abusive as men, often in the same ways. The drivers might be different, due to underlying stereotypes, but I'm not even sure about that. Trillian's checklist looks like a good one!

But what would you do about finances, the shared stuff? You surely wouldn't expect to communicate via solicitor, would you? I do find the idea of not discussing things further very odd.

Well, yes, HerBeBolloX, I'd ask why, I wouldn't continue asking why and I would sincerely hope that I would have the decency not to press the issue if my dp didn't want to explain further. It is HIS body, HIS life, he doesn't want to know anymore, up to him. I don't own him. Nor him me.

None of us are perfect, but I do think that. as a standard to aim at, respecting that when our dp/dh tells us they've had enough, that is respected and we don't keep going on and on at them.

I never suggested it wasn't subjective, wamster, or I'd simply have told you you were categorically wrong.

I'm afraid I do not think you are describing a very common situation for adults in long term relationships. It's not normal for a long-term adult relationship to end simply with one person saying 'no thanks'. There should be discussion. I would submit that, if a person is capable of ending an adult relationship simply by saying they don't want to be in it any more, that person is not emotionally fully developed.

That sounds a bit mad to me tbh.

So if you've been married for 20 years to someone and out of the blue they tell you they don't want to be in a relationship with you anymore, you should jsut respect that and not ask them why not?

You're not currently in a committed relationship, are you Wamster?

All of this is subjective, LRD, what one person may view as being stalking behaviour another person may see as being reasonable.
A guy who goes to his ex's home to demand explanations is -in his eyes, being reasonable. In my eyes, he is not.

I maintain that when a person says they don't want to be in a relationship anymore, the other person should respect that decision and not demand explanations. A guy doesn't want to know (or if a girl doesn't want to know anymore if you're a guy) that should always be respected.

I don't see this as a feminist issue, just a treating people's decisions with respect issue.

Yes you keep on pretending that psycho exes are the ones who keep calling weeks or months later when their exes have told them it's over, Wamster.

That's not what happens. The ex never does tell them it's over, which is why they continue to believe that they're the girlfriend. Which he encourages her to believe, while telling everyone else she's his psycho ex.

We aren't talking about real pscyho exes here, they're not the feminist issue that's being discussed; we're talking about the exes men say are psycho exes who aren't, which is an interesting feminist issue (IMO anyway, I think it's quite interesting and it's feminist...)

sunshine - thanks. The reason I say I'm the 'psycho ex' is that is how he'd see it and how many people would think of it. I can see how what was happening, but couldn't then. And, of course, few of us really know exactly what happens in other people's relationships. The 'visible' bit, if you like, was me doing the crying/phoning/demanding. That's what people see. But they don't see the other bit.

Interesting you and your ex's other ex get on!

But you say if someone says 'I don't want to be with you' it's clear ... well, maybe it is. How often is that actually said, though? Like I say, my ex never said it. In fact, as I say, I asked often if he wanted to split up and he said no. If you believe him, it was only the split second before he got together with his new girl that he had any inkling he didn't want to be with me. This would, of course, be more plausible if his new girlfriend didn't date that split second about 6 weeks before I knew anything of it.

In this very short thread, someone else has also made the same point. I don't think it's terribly uncommon.

I also think it depends on the situation. Yes, if you are a teenager or having a fling, a simple 'I don't want to be with you' is fair enough. But two adults who live together? No, it's plain ridiculous.

LRD - that sounds awful! Good for you for not dropping the post-grad course and for taking control of your life. (I bet it really pissed him off that you didn't crumble so he could justify what you'd done).

FWIW I don't think you sound like a psycho ex at all. Given that he suddenly got a new girlfriend when you were in a serious LTR and basically threw you out I think it is entirely normal to take several weeks to deal with it and to keep contacting him. Under the circumstances you would be bound to want to talk to him about it in order to make sense of it.

He does indeed sound like a typical abuser.

When I first got together with my abusive X I was new to the area so didn't know too many people (if I had heard some of the information I came to know later, I'd have steered well clear). My X painted a picture of his X as a complete psycho x. Wouldn't allow him to see the children, harassing him, etc etc. I fell for it hook, line and sinker. It seems so incredibly obvious now but at the time it seemed really plausible. It wasn't helped by the fact that all his friends backed him up, agreeing she was psycho. I didn't think to question what they were basing that opinion on (i.e. lies he had told them rather than events witnessed directly), and, of course, I'd never met her to form my own opinion.

Today, we two psycho exes (of which I am one of course ) get on extremely well and our DC spend time together because they are half-siblings. Which is a bit unusual given that their father sees nothing of some of them and has only supervised contact in my case, but there we go. Should make for some interesting family photos and some creative explanations in the future...

When I see women posting on here about first wives or their DP's Xs as 'difficult' I often wonder how many are in for a rude awakening at some point in the future.

LRD, I do not understand what you mean by 'what the hell's going on'- if you mean that it takes months for somebody to realise their ex has an abusive personality after they have been dumped by the abuser, I agree with you entirely; it is often only in retrospect that such things can be seen clearly.

If you mean by 'what the hell's going on' you mean that it takes weeks to realise that somebody has dumped you (generic 'you'), I disagree completely. If somebody says, ' I don't want to be with you anymore', it is pretty clear: they don't want to be with you anymore. Why bother asking about the whys and wherefores? I don't really see the point.

OK, crying and initially asking why is forgivable and human (Not logical, though) but to be asking 'why' weeks later is, at best, somebody not being in possession of their normal self and, at worst, really entitled behaviour.

Yes, Aye, they want fully-involved sex with a disinvolved relationship

But wamster, if you're in a situation like the one I described above, it will take you weeks to know what the hell's going on. Months even.

I think quite a lot of men know exactly what they mean by "psycho". Never listened to/read a bunch of lovely middle class young men discussing their experiences in relation to the sexual, erm, expressiveness of "mental" women? And then their tales of what happened when they broke up with them, largely because they required a modicum of attention?

Yes, I agree that there's a hell of a difference between sending somebody a few more texts than is strictly dignified and threatening to kill yourself or someone else if those aren't answered.

The definition of 'pyscho' is wide and subjective: for example, if I broke up with somebody and they got upset and wanted to know why, I'd forgive them for being upset, if this continued over several into weeks, I'd be worried.

Other people may feel it entitled just for the other person to ask in first place. Yes, it is subjective. I see that, but I think being initially upset and asking what went wrong is one thing, threatening behaviour against anybody, and demanding to know what went wrong weeks later sets the alarm bells ringing.

I think it is a feminist issue. I think women's mental health is a huge feminist issue. This is not to say men's mental health is not, but IMO there are socially constructed differences and it is important to treat the two separately some of the time.

I also think that emotional abuse is a feminist issue. Again, that's not because I think men are never abused and always abusers, but I think emotional abuse of women by men has specific characteristics. And all the rest of the patriarchial system exacerbates the problem.

I do not think - unless you are a teenager or in a very brief fling - that merely cutting contact is any way to end a relationship. It's not 'a bit cowardly' to do so - it's strange and damaging.

Like garlic, I've been that pyscho ex and yes, wamster, by your standards I got it all wrong.

My ex and I planned to move in together and I was going to look for a place to rent while he started his new job. I drove up to meet him, about 110 miles from where I'd lived before. I would be near my brother and I was looking forward to that. I found he'd 'made a mistake' and the job was actually located a further 50 miles away. I should have gone straight home. I didn't. I was caring for a sick relative and very tired, and couldn't get a job because I was doing the caring and because it was a very, very, bad area of the country for employment. I felt bad I wasn't contributing more. But I could help out by doing the housework, thank goodness. And paying the rent from my savings.

My friends (very far away) told me I was doing too much, that I shouldn't be doing all the housework, that he wasn't treating me right. I didn't hear them. He was so nice to me, and after all I was such a hopeless person, wasn't I? And he'd had a horribly psycho ex, so I needed to be very calm for him.

I kept paying the rent, buying stuff, because I still felt so guilty I couldn't get a job. I kept applying for jobs - and he helped me apply, showing me jobs that would be good. I was overqualified for them, but that didn't mean anything - I'd got it wrong, you see, academic qualifications weren't worth much in the real world. I felt like such a fool. And he was so busy - and I was so lazy: no wonder I couldn't get a job. And we knew the year after he had to go and live elsewhere, and we'd have a year apart, but I had to be patient because he was in it for the long haul - we'd shared finances after all, I'd paid for more now and he'd pay back later.

Eventually, I applied for a postgraduate course and got in. He helped me find a room to rent - an expensive one so there'd be room for him to come and stay. He said he might be very busy and not have much time to visit me if I went off studying. We kept arguing. I felt awful; I felt really unstable. He could see I was mentally very ill, he said. But no, he didn't want to split up, no.

I went to see my parents, and he rang to say sorry, he had a new girlfriend.
Bad timing, but there we were. Could I drive up immediately to clear out the house? I got there; he said he felt too emotional, he couldn't stay in the house with me. Would I clear out on my own, please?

And I did. And thereafter, I called him and I ranted and I cried, and I was upset. I had no clue what was going on. I was mentally a total mess, but if I'd only seen it, I was getting better and it was the point when I got that postgrad course that he lost interest. I am the psycho ex, but that pattern of his behaviour for me is the absolute blueprint of an entitled, abusive man.

Yes I agree. But quite often, people haven't been dumped have they. On the whole, when people talk about "psycho exes", they aren't talking about that scenario, they're talking about having wound someone up and played them. All you need to do is ask a few questions and they give themselves away without realising they're doing so.

And there's a hell of a difference between sending someone a few more texts than is strictly dignified, and threatening to kill yourself or someone else, if those texts aren't answered. The definition of "psycho" is a little too wide, too subjective and too gender-differentiated, to button it down to everyone's satisfaction.