Have ordered Wifework....slightly concerned about the after effects

Here it is, it's not exactly about wifework but it's about cleaning up, hording, women being judged on their houses etc. Anyway it's an interesting thread if you've got time

Quite right SaF.

TPL, one of the most useful thngs I read on here was along the lines of: don't compare your husband and what he does to other men, compare him to what you do.

If you compare him to other men, he will almost certainly win because of course mumsnet feminists all have lovely husbands and so many other men aren't measuring up. But if you compare him to you, then you acknowledge that you are as important as him and you get a better gauge of what's fair and what isn't. For many women, comparing your hsuband to other men, is a sure fire way of ensuring you end up doing more housework than currently as so many others do so little. Also, men tend to compare themselves with other men rather than with their wives, so again get an inflated idea of how much they are doing. Because of course, in comparison with other men they're doing more, but in comparison with their wives, they're doing less, and unless you compare yourself with the right person, you're not going to get the right conclusion.

Also I just thought of a thread all about housework which SGB posted, will try and find it for you.

What SAF said. It's not personal about/at you it's personal to them.

TPL - thing is there are some posters who come on here purely because they don't like feminism/feminists and see an opportunity to come and tell us there is no problem or we're all mad or just need to grow a backbone etc. trick is not to take it personally because it really isn't about you or your situation it's about them and their agenda ok?

glad you had a lightbulb by the way. yes i can see how food and home work can interrelate - in a way our homes are a bit like our second body in terms of a space that is ours and we control and live in etc. so yes i don't think it is surprising that control issues in one could have their reflections in the other iyswim.

also our homes and our bodies are things we are judged on.

but main point was - don't take the oh for gods sake such it up you dummies posters personally - it really isn't about you.

I think without doubt it's male/ female relationships that make housework a problem.

Masses of men live without a woman and get on with their own housework and do it perfectly competently and well. And then they move in with a woman and suddenly, they stop doing it.

It's definitely to do with male female expectations in relationships I think

i think so trucking. it's that dynamic. housework is just housework after all until it's not - and it's often not in the context of a marriage - it becomes symbolic of a lot and revealing of the dynamics of the relationship for example.

I think that's true keepon - I've heard people say it before on here, that when their partner goes away for a few days they actually find the housework aspect gets easier.

I'm a single father and the children live with me, I know a few other resident dads, and housework etc. doesn't seem to be a problem.

In fact I think it's easier on my own than with a partner.

So perhaps it's male/female relationships that have more problems.

My copy of Wifework arrived just now.

He's lovely really. He just doesn't "think". He works really hard and comes home and just wants to chill. He is very much a "get on with it" kind of person whereas I am much more emotional I think. He is fantastic with dd and we laugh a lot in our house. A lot of it is down to him being a bit older than me. He was 46 when dd was born, and whilst very hands on with her, I don't think he gives much thought to "parenting" in the wider sense.

portofino i don't mean that women are necessarily more aware and/or considerate by virtue of being women. i'm just speculating whether the experience of being gay and having to reject a massive part of gender expectations, eg. have sex with men! attract men, be what men want, find a husband, you need a man to have a baby and blah blah blah would mean that through experience their consciousness of gender issues and inequality might be higher than the average heterosexual woman who has fitted in with gender expectations up to that point.

obviously within that group you've still got all the variations of personality etc but they have had life shaping experiences that logically might incline them to be rather more sceptical of traditional gender roles and ways of doing things.

porto i feel you better list us some of your dh's saving graces and qualities before we think he's doomed and wonder what you're doing with him

I can add an anecdote to yours, blackcurrants. Dh knows I am having a shitty time at work. He took dd to the carwash on Sunday. On Tuesday I bought a bunch of flowers. I joked when he came home - oh look you bought me some flowers to cheer me up. This is a bit of a "joke" in our house. He remembered that he DID in fact buy me some flowers on the Sunday and they were dessicating in his boot. I told him to pick off the dead ones and treat his admin at work......and she WAS happy with half a bunch of flowers.....So both of us HAD flowers but none of us had the full sentiment. A bit sad really.

two anecdotes that made me think of this thread:

1. dh went away for work last week. I also work ft, and DS is one. me to my DM: I dunno how I'll do it all.' her: 'Oh I love it when your DF goes away! So much less cooking and laundry and picking up!' me: 'That is cos DF is someone you look after, whereas my DH is someone who halves my workload.' her: 'good point.'

I did like the quiet, watch-what-you like part after DS was in bed but I wastoo tired to enjoy it.

1. After DH got back from his trip I suggested that he got his 2 colleagues who'd helped him a thank you gift. I then reminded him to buy them, reminded him to write the notes, and reminded him to take them in. He was verygratecul for the suggestion and said I was a genius etc, but still wouldnt have done it had I not been there remiding. It's not that I object to making the suggestion, it is more that I dont think it would cross his mind to think about wat he could do to further my career so reflexively. And I am conscious that my DH is more of a proper partner than most.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that women are better that being "more aware" or " more switched on" in the home. I think that sometimes it is a dynamic where other women or other men are. I think it a role that we learn, and one we either accept or reject according to our personality when we live on our own. Culture and society and upbringing probably affect the role we take on when we live with someone else.....

there was some quite attacking, 'suck it up you whingebag' type posting early on but don't let a couple of people dictate the taste left in your mouth when so many of us have not been like that

not more considerate as in inherently or by some consideration gene but through being women who have grown up in a patriarchy and experienced it and especially having already rejected some of it's gender dictates.

leningrad posted about her same sex relationship TPL if you look back. obviously can't generalise from a study of one but i'd think there'd be a good chance of women being more considerate and aware. not all obviously.

Don't feel attacked provincialLady! If it was me I certainly didn't mean to, I'm very aware that my relationship is a work in progress and I keep wanting to defend myself and DH and, erm, sometimes I probably do that by getting keen on the theory instead of looking at the practice.

Oh I need to include "shared parenting households" TOO.

I don't think you have been attacked on this thread at all. But taking a man out of the dynamic also applies to lone parents. It would be interesting to do a study in how "2 female" households compare to "male/female" households compared to "lone parent" households, or "male/male" households. No particular order there. I just wonder if any studies have ever been done about the "happiness" of the adults and children in each scenario?

TPL, I understood reading this that both Leningrad and her partner are women.