Have ordered Wifework....slightly concerned about the after effects

Why is that the moral? I haven't made a stupid choice and most certainly don't see myself as a victim- you may feel the choice is stupid, but my point is, why be bitter about it? If it bothers you so much, for your sake or for the sake of others on this thread, be aware that choices are not set in stone. For me, learning that the patriarchy helped me realize how much my choices and my DH's choices are socially conditioned, so I don't just want to give up and think life will never be great and it's all my fault.

I've read Wifework. I got it as soon as it came out 10 years ago.

Eh?
Not with you.

The moral therefore is don't get mad at 'the patriarchy' (whatever that is)_. Get mad at yourelf/selves for making such stupid choices and being victims.

• sorry, should have said, a life she would find sad/non-ideal. Not an intrinsically sad life (which I guess is the point).

May I say, it may be bleeding obvious to you moondog but it's very useful to me, not having already learned this stuff from trial and error. I'd as soon not have to do the trial and error bit too much, so I like hearing what other people did.

Don't really see the bitterness in marginally's posts - I'm afraid you soon much more bitter yourself! Is it so bad to see someone else doing it differently from you and not insisting on settling for a sad life?

Marginally, your posts are a strange mix of holie-than-thou I'm-such-a-saint hyperbole and out and out bitterness.
You're also great at stating the bleeding obvious, namley that we all need a break everty now and again.

I live this idea that one day the world will place a monetary value on light supervision of your own children in the non too taxing environment of a home in the developed world eqwuivalent to if not higher than that it places on someone managing say a factory or running a department in a local council.

I've done the SAHM and the working in a demanding job thing. Staying at home is pretty dull on occasion but it's not hard.

To have childre has to effect one of you after all, so choose who it is and get on with it!

Why should it affect one of them? Surely it affects both of them?

jelly - yes, I agree, insisting your way is perfect is just as bad!

"To have childre has to effect one of you after all, so choose who it is and get on with it!"

I think that this is where our difference of opinion lies. I don't think having a child has to only affect one of the parents and not the other. And I do find it strangely coincidental that the vast majority of those it affects is the mother. I wonder why that is?

So are you going to be continually pissed off until there is a strict 50-50 balance night and day and flog yourselves to death about it night and day?

So is that what a femninst is then, someone who is bitter about being at home with kids even though she chose to do so and view herself as demeaned and not quite up to scratch with her other half? Feminist who place little or no value on a woman in the home, cheers for that.

You seem to have a rather strange idea of feminism Carocaro.

It's not feminists who regard looking after children, cooking, cleaning etc as not 'proper' work or less as being less valid than WAH. It's not feminists that have given caring roles such a lowly place in society, with childcare and nursing being assigned such a low financial value in relation to other jobs.

Feminists want women to have the choice to do what they want and to be valued for what they do. If a man works and the woman stays at home and looks after young children and that works for them, great. What she is doing is work. Why should she not get any time off? The man gets to stop work every day. When does the woman? Does the fact that she doesn't receive a paycheck mean that she has to work all the time? If she stays at home to provide childcare during the week does that mean that she has to do that all day every day? If they both work Mon-Fri, why should she do full time Sat and Sun too? Surely when they are both home cooking, childcare etc should be shared?

It's very easy to fall into patterns of inequality when people tend to become couples when they are both working full time. When one person is suddenly at home, because of maternity leave, they tend to take on more stuff around the home because they're home more. This doesn't situation doesn't automatically reverse when they have children to look after or if they return to work. You can start off with the best of patterns and intentions and life gets in the way.

jelly - I didn't say I did it constantly. That's not the point. Point is, if you're compromising, that should not involve one person doing nothing and the other doing all the adapting. That's all.

Interesting observation that on this thread all the women who have mentioned it, have an earning power significantly less than their OHs.

Agree with spoons that relationships that are equal can easily go wonky when children come along. Suddenly there is all the extra work that actually having someone at home all day with a baby brings, and of course the woman on mat leave is generally the one who does it. She's at home, after all. And before you can say "illusion of equality" the wife is scrubbing the bath and the husband is on the golf course at the weekend having his well deserved break from work.

Of course it doesn't have to be like that.... But it is very easy to fall into. If your house looks a bit unkempt who gets looks askance at? It's not the man, IME.

I have just quoted some of it to DH. It said that married men are much less likely to be murdered than unmarried men. We were just discussing why that might be.

Ooh this has just reminded me to dig out the copy I ordered from Amazon.

But some of us do like to do that. The OP says her DH will be happy with her reading extracts to him. My DH reads this forum over my shoulder sometimes. Just different people liking different things, IMO. No harm.

"Oh my, looks like you should just suck it up,TPL."

To have childre has to effect one of you after all, so choose who it is and get on with it!

I do like books, but don't need to quote from them to make a case about me when speaking with my DH.

Caro - some of us like books; some of us don't. It's just life surely? It'd be very boring if we all did things the same.

plenty - just ordered mine.

The 'don't tidy so much' is one of my DH's favourite arguments.

Someone on here made the very good point that, while socially the state of his house isn't thought to reflect on him, the state of mine is. Being aware of this, I do try to shrug it off when my parents come round and blame me for a dirty kitchen not him, but in the real world, you notice these things. You can't (or I can't) just pretend everything's lovely and equal and it doesn't matter.

But the 'don't tidy so much' argument is a bit of a problem I think. I get the impression lots of couples would say that one person (the woman, usually), just naturally has a higher standard of cleanness. See above for one reason why this might be. IMO, if there genuinely is a discrepancy between what two people think is reasonable cleaness/tidyness, they need to compromise, right? But somehow, this always gets expressed as man saying to woman 'don't tidy so much', with the unspoken ride, 'I don't mind if it's less tidy - you do mind - so why don't you adapt towards my standards and tidy less?'. It looks like a compromise, because the woman ends up doing less work. But actually, it means the man doesn't have to change his behaviour, and the woman has to put up with things being less tidy/clean than she'd like. Because she's being 'uptight' to care so much, right?

Thing is ... why shouldn't that woman be uptight? She lives there. To me, then, this is a sort of empty compromise. I think it's possibly quite an easy one to make, but it's fucking annoying!

I don't know any feminists who place little or no value on a woman in the home - that's rather the point of the book, isn't it, to look at exactly how much work 'wives' do, beyond the obvious, and how generally it's not valued at all?

(don't actually know 100% as my copy hasn't arrived yet - I'd like to join in a chat about it when a few of us have read it)

I actually think that homemaking, freely chosen and done well, is an admirable thing requiring not only hard work but huge amounts of self-motivation and skill (esp. the 'project management' type aspects) but it still stinks that having children has such a massive impact on a woman's life when her partner just gets to carry on forging ahead in his career as 'normal'.

I have, and would, never denigrate a stay at home parent. I don't know how you got that from my post.

As you say, life is fluid, TPL is simply asking for pointers on how to raise how to move into this next phase.