Motherhood, fatherhood - why do parents give ourself such different job descriptions as parents....

To the OP

Im not sure how voluntary this splitting along traditional lines is. My DH is the stay at home parent. It was hard to garner any support for our choices. I was almost accused of abandoning my children and DH was told flat out that men were not as good at looking after children.

Couple this attitude with the financial issues already stated on this thread. And the lack of acceptance ( as stated by a poster on this thread, and experianced by DH) of men in many parent-child groups.

You have to be very determined to go outside the so called norms. DH was damned if he wasnt going to enjoy every last possible second of being a parent as soon as DD1 was born. Couple this with me not being the most maternal of mothers (I can relate to the poster who said she would make a better father than a mother), DH being the stay at home parent for us was a no brainer.

He is so organised that I sometimes feel the need to ask him how to do things. The food is so much better now that Im not cooking it. :( Appointments are never missed. (unlike me who has to be reminded about my own appointments) The kids are happy and well adjusted. And the house is clean. And no DH is not a saint he is a SAHD.

And yet people still try and sideline DH and only engage with me over anything to do with the children. I think it makes things tough for non conforming families.

I think that part of the problem is that so many people equate mothering with babies, and think of it as a short term issue to manage, rather than thinking of parenthood, which is to some degree permanent. In the long run the first year (intense and demanding though it is) is a very short period of time and shouldn't dominate long term planning to the extent that it often does.

I am confused by the original post.

' most people still seem to voluntarily split their family responsibilities along traditional lines (either completely or partially) and many say they are happy that way.

Is that ok, or should it change, and if so how'

If they are happy, why would they change it?

Better safe than sorry, though, Sunshine.:)

This is a really interesting discussion.

I'm pregnant with my first so I don't have any kids yet, but I can see among my friends that despite their intentions, they slip into the old gender roles. I think one major factor is it is the woman who carries the baby, gives birth to it and then has maternity leave. During this leave, the women often gets into the mothering role, and then sticks with it. Anecdotally, many women are happy with this, and after devoting on average 6 months mat leave to the baby, they often prefer to work part time (or sometimes give up work completely) so they can continue to spend more time with the baby. It's hard to say if this is instinct or just habit. Other friends have chosen to go back to full time work sooner and in those cases the gender roles are far less evident. The most important thing is that each couple is happy with the arrangements. What is very positive these days is that childcare is available so that women can go back to work if that's what they want.

I think modern day couples are lucky that they are more choices than in the past, even though there are still improvements that can be made. I'm not sure how many couples would choose paternity leave instead of maternity leave. As a woman who is 6 mths pregnant, my mind and my body have already been taken over by baby, and by the time the baby comes I can imagine I will be more than ready to switch off from work for a few months. It's a big adjustment being pregnant and then giving birth, and (for many) breastfeeding. I think at least some mat leave is desirable before having to focus on work again. I am not saying there is no adjustment for the father, but it's not to the same extent.

FTR, I love my job, and I plan to go back full time (baby in nursery) after 9 months. I worked really hard to get my job and I am so grateful I can go back to it after some time with the baby.

I'll forgive you for forgetting. I can't forget mine because there were so damn many of them because I had twins.

The irony is that I had a completely trouble-free pregnancy (apart from 6 horrific weeks of morning sickness) and was still walking 5 miles a day with the dog the day before going into labour. I really didn't need the special attention they kept giving me.

Actually thinking more about it - I did take time off for the hospital appts( scan and last trimester). 1st and 2nd trimester at gp clinic outside work hours. So I'll take back that post.

I skipped ante-natal classes too (didn't appeal in the slightest - boring!) but being a high-risk pregnancy (twins) I didn't dare skip my MW visits or my scans and I don't think many women do, though you can reject them of course.

Although I do agree with most of the rest of Sunshine's post.

"Once a woman is pregnant she'll need time off for midwife visits, ante-natal classes, etc."

I never took time off for these things.

I think it's a mistake to think that the traditional mother/father roles are a genuine choice. One 'choice' is weighted much more heavily than the other.

If you're a working woman you are faced with this dilemma even before you have a child. Many employers still view you with suspicion, which means that a couple, both aged say 28, with equal qualifications and abilities, working in a similar field, will probably still find that the man has slightly more job stability and a slightly higher salary. At the lower-skilled end of the market many employers circumvent this by having short-term renewable contracts with 7 days off between the end of one and the start of another so that people don't qualify for maternity rights beyond the statutory.

This all contributes to a culture where even before children are conceived the underlying expectation is that the mother will be the one stopping/reducing work.

And we can't neglect biology. Once a woman is pregnant she'll need time off for midwife visits, ante-natal classes, etc. Men do not have the right to time off for these. Many women also need additional time off for complications during pregnancy. Men do not have this right to time off.

After the birth women are tied to their babies in a way that just doesn't apply to men because of the need to physically recover and breastfeeding. As anyone who has tried it knows, expressing BM so you can go back to full-time work is demanding, exhausting and very time-consuming, and not always possible. Some women cannot/choose not to BF and that's fine, but for those who want to, how can we justify making it harder for them or forcing them to give it up entirely purely for the pursuit of money? Because that's what it boils down to for most women I feel.

Apart from all but the most ambitious people (and I think this would apply to less than 10% of the total population, both men and women) most people do not want to go straight back to work after having a baby. That doesn't mean they want to be a SAHM. It means that they just want a reasonable amount of time to enjoy their baby, establish feeding patterns, adjust to parenthood, find a system that works for them, and then return to work without having completely sabotaged their careers. This was why maternity leave was established. There is no male equivalent apart from unpaid time off which for most families means it may as well be non-existent.

Given that 82% of people are parents, I can't believe that as a nation we haven't come up with a fairer solution to this. We have come so far by introducing maternity rights, which are great. But unless they are extended to men we are always going to find the vast majority of SAHPs being mothers because the care-giving role as enshrined in law is set even before the baby is born. And even if paternity rights were identical to maternity rights, I think you'd still find more women being primary carers because of the biology of breast-feeding etc. This is not biological determinism but simply a recognition that a woman has a lot more physically invested in her child than a man. This is no reason why a dad can't become the primary carer and I think we'd see a lot more of this with better paternity rights and a higher status awarded to the role of SAHD, but denying the effect pregnancy/childbirth/lactation has on a woman and how that has a direct effect on longer-term mother/father roles seems to me to be very dismissive about women and what they do.

With the law and biology pushing men and women in definite directions, it really isn't a true choice for many. In the austerity age even those who can see the long-term advantages to role reversals may not be able to afford to do so and have to revert to traditional roles. Their choices may not be matched by their opportunities.

I wonder if it might be better to recognise that motherhood is an important, equally valuable function in a capitalist society just as much as the parent who works out of the home.

Apart from the labour market (which meant we needed to keep H's job as I am self employed so my work while equal in pay is more risky) and the biology. I ahd a difficult pregnancy and breast fed. The stuff that really gets to me is the expectations and while I was raised by a fem/ist I still find myself cringing when I dont do what I feel I am supposed to because I think DH needs to do it.

So...its the buying gifts. I dont buy gifts for 'his' friends new babies. But I do end up hassling him to do it cos I feel they will think badly of me if 'we' dont. Is this stupid of me or just that there are different expectations on women?
Or arranging the small stuff with nanny/cm. Its like you have to physically force them to speak to each other and not use me like some ancient telephone exchange.

Ditto the small talk you have to make with sitters, somehow he glides past all this without feeling the expectation to make nice. Which I feel. Is it just cos I am me or is it because I am a woman and these things are expected of women??
Makes me grr when I note that somehow I am the only one who feels it when I think our flat isnt up to scratch on cleanliness and I see someone clock the dust on the ledge. We share the housework so why is it only me who feels this shame when its not done properly???

vezzie - I understand the dilemma of wanting equality and then feeling personally uncomfortable in some situations. I guess we are a product of our own socialisation and those deep held beliefs prevent us from accepting that a man could give the same emotional/social support as a woman (and so the gender roles that are culturally defined become self-perpetuating).

Are we guilty of (consciously or unconsciously) rebutting the man's attempts to be emotionally supportive or is it that we never demand them to be?

In your example, for men to be successful at giving non-judgemental, post-pregnancy support the man must first have the desire to be emotionally/socially supportive and the woman must be willing to accept emotional/social support from them. I think those kind of men are few and far between but I wonder how many women would really want to go to a man for that kind of support?

Nobody works in a vacuum - we all need to plug into other people, who would be called "colleagues" or "external partners" in our WOHM roles, and it is really difficult sometimes working against what they expect of you.

After mat leave with dd1, I went to back to work 4 days a week and DP moved to 3, so I was looking for a CM for the other 2 days a week. DP would be doing at least half of the pick-ups, drop offs, and would spend more time at home with dd, but it didn't occur to the CMs that I was interviewing that he was a real co-parent. (One wanted to know how they would talk to me on the days that DP collected dd, if anything had "come up", for instance. No one asked how they could talk to him the days I collected her!) In the end, unfortunately, the CM I chose can't look at, or talk to DP at all as it seems to be forbidden her by her religion (I didn't realise this in advance as the 3 times I met her before making the decision there were no men around except her husband. So I just saw her as a very open, friendly, communicative person - which she can only be with women.)

My mother thinks DP is "very good" to do anything at all with the girls. I earn more than him, dammit, does she want me to do everything? She drives him nuts by following him into the kitchen in his own house to ask if he can find everything he needs.

Now, here is the hypocrisy. To tell the truth I am not always nuts about having fathers at mothery-gatherings of various sorts. This is unfair and I never say anything about it irl, and I would hope DP would be welcome places with dd, so I have misgivings about my misgivings. But I relied on my mother-friends when I was a mess soon after the births of my children, and I wanted to talk about gross things, and so did they, and we mainlined coffee and cake and really looked after each other. I actually think that there were days I would have felt too low to go out if I had known I had to present myself to a physically whole, non-bleeding man who would keep his shirt on throughout and not feel the need to bare (ravaged) bosoms at any time.

Also at the play group dd1 went to when I was heavily pregnant with dd2 (with SPD), there were about 2 chairs adults could sit in and I kept dragging one over to where dd1 was playing and then I would have to get up to do something for her and then I'd turn around to find a man sitting in it. Every bloody time. GRRRRRRRRR. I never saw a woman take a chair from a pregnant woman. OK this is turning into a rant now. THE END

agree with Tyr... it's more than just who works and who doesn't..

there is a fundamental difference in our society between 'being a mother' and 'being a father'..

personally i am ttc and i still don't know if i want to 'be a mother'.. but i do want to be a parent so i guess i've got no choice.

thing is, i think i'd make a better father.. i can be caring and kind but i'm also fun and playful, i like to teach kids things and explore the world with them.. but i'm not (yet) very good at cooking for people and providing, worrying and organising, wiping bums or faces and cuddling better grazes or nightmares.. i'm certainly no good at 'keeping home'.

i'm hoping this all comes with pregnancy and birth hormones and having my own children... i want to be a good mother.. but i'm a little bit scared i won't.. however, i am confident that between us my DH and i can be good parents as he will fill in the gaps in my mothering (thankfully).

I?m not a ?MN feminist? but I agree with the content of your OP and I think it is a mistake to reduce the issue of gender roles in parenting to breadwinner/SAHM. It is much deeper than that- the prevailing fallacy is that the mother is the nurturer and the father the authority figure. Both genders can and do fill both roles. It is a fallacy perpetuated in every area of life, e.g. by the advertising industry- how often do you see ads for washing powder with male protagonists? That is just one trivial example that reinforces the prejudice.

Certainly agree with you on the career choice thinking. My mother was very keen that we (her daughters) all chose options that we could drop easily for children and then do part time again few years later. I don't recall her advising my brother in such a way at all (I took my career advice from my father instead).

My dh does all the things traditionally associated with being a SAHM, he's even active on the PTA. I think our friends think it is a bit odd, but as our children are at school he doesn't get many 'saintly' comments, more easy life ones.

I'd like to see more options open for families, with more of an idea that people can and should do different things and have different roles throughout their lives dependent ideally on their choices.

Nooka, it's not a matter of a SAHD needing a different template. It's more that, by virtue of being in a (relatively) unusual position, he has the freedom to define that role for himself.

By contrast, a SAHM has social expectations that she will (for example) deal with all the house work, deal with everything to do with the child(ren), and ensure she has provided the man of the house with a hot meal when he returns from work. By contrast, if a SAHD still has the same number of children he started off with that morning and the house hasn't burnt down he's often regarded as something akin to a saint.

There is an element of patronism in this - as a single father, I have sometimes felt patronised that some of my acquaintances see the fact that my DCs being happy, clothed and looked after means I deserve some special praise considering I managed all that despite merely being a man. That's irritating, I won't deny that, but it's not difficult to exceed such low expectations. But I'd happily take such easily ignored patronism if it means I don't have to deal with the judging and opprobrium that is often aimed at SAHMs and/or single mothers.

When a woman gives up their full time job to be at home it will be easier for her to slot into a pre-defined role; a template which has been defined down the generations. When a man gives up work there is more negotiation required for who will do what. Forget housework which can be fairly evenly split. What about buying clothes for the children. Taking kids to the dentist Clearing out old toys. Visiting elderly relatives. All things often associated with SAHMs but not with SAHDs. Or maybe I'm wrong and Dads do these things? Or do the women at work come home and take on traditionally masculine roles at the weekend. I speak as a working Mum with an H who was a SAHD. I never got it right. I tried very hard for 8 years to make everything balance but couldn't because H never really took on what I saw as being his responsibilities at home. He never appreciated the extent of his role. Have others had more positive experiences? Can it work?

Why would a SAHD need a different template or role model? Not sure why a template is needed at all to be honest, although I know what you mean about the pressure from societal norms (and other people). dh looks after the children and the home. When I (briefly) took the role I did a lot less than him! You are right about the support though. I know that SAHDs sometimes get the 'aren't you wonderful' treatment, but they are also (in general) less welcome at many groups as they have a tendency to be very 'mum' orientated. Sometimes too men are looked at a bit strangely for wanting to spend time with their children and women also for not wanting the full time parenting role.

The flexible working problems is another contributor, if men work in areas that are traditionally male dominated they may not have the same flexible working options, or may have to fight for them. I worked for the NHS which because it has traditionally employed many women has very good flexible working programs which are widely used by men and women (and non parents too) so don't attract any stigma.