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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Need your insight on... discourse techniques to keep inequality going

41 replies

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved · 09/09/2011 14:37

a bit of an odd one, but bear with me please... I wish I could make this punchy so people will post here, as working this out is really really important to me, both in terms of understanding the world more, but also in a very personal way.

I avidly read the feminist threads, and have been following the attempts to derail constructive debate here with a mounting sense of irritation/fury/depression, but also a sense of familiarity and personal relevance. Last night I realised why, and now i really need your help to work it out some more!

In a very large nutshell: i work in a very unpleasant company, which would be interesting enough for a post of its own - run by 2 women, but a product of a patriarchal society and women's individual ways to get ahead within that context (see second post for more about this if you want to read more! but you don't need to, more me ranting!)

I have become disabled, they are discriminating against me, i've just realised that they are using a lot of the techniques that people use against women/ feminists to deny them equality. Need to identity these techniques and work out how to deal with them, as without this i feel i'll fail to get through this.

I have become disabled partially because they have refused to listen to me and make adjustments, and now its crunch time, I need them to make adjustments, and quick. I have realised they are definitely discriminating against me because of my disability (consulted lawyers), but have had the insight that the way they interact and 'discuss' things with me echoes misogynist/ anti-feminist debate, even though they are women themselves.

The penny dropped after a really uncomfortable conversation with a director on Wednesday, which afterwards my friends nailed why i was upset in one... that she was belittling and minimising my disability/ health/ need for change. Minimising totally rang a bell... thats what people do to women to keep the status quo of inequality.

I now have a PLAN! late next week i have a formal meeting to discuss my disability and the changes they need to put in place. They will be trying every trick they know to not help me, break me down and make me go away...

I make them uncomfortable and they hate me and what i represent. I am ill having been perfectly well - reminder of lifes unfairness and their own mortality. They know that they have contributed to it, and guilt doesn;t make people act in a nice way... I am ugly now, fat and on crutches/ braces, limping/ dragging feet etc... ugliness is not tolerated, its disgusting and they don't want it in their company. I am a single mum coping with no family support and an abusive ex... they want to blame everything on 'child care issues'... and kick the weakling working mum who they despise for not being seamlessly in control...

I have prepared a really good business case, I know the law is on my side, I have the solution which is good for them and me... and I know they'd rather do anything than actually make it work. So, I need to prepare myself for all the underhand techniques they will use to discriminate and derail me.

My problem is i know they are doing something, but can't identify it til afterwards, when its too late to react appropriately...

This is where you brilliant people come in... please help me make a list of all the misogynist and discriminatory behaviours and discourse techniques, then I can learn to identify them and then handle them.

I tried to look it up on the internet last night and to my horror got a load of women hating sites explaining how feminists debate badly (spits and growls, ffs)... but again thats a whole other post...

so to follow are my thoughts on the list... can you add and debate and generally help me please?????

NB in case you are wondering, I need to stay working with them for another 6-12 mths, if i possibly can, but if they refuse to play ball, am going to have to take them to court, which i don't want to do if i can help it (yet anyway).

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KRITIQ · 27/09/2011 12:23

ACAS, try ACAS as well. Just really sorry to hear about what happened.

aliceliddell · 27/09/2011 12:19

Union! They should at least give you some advice. Try disability rights organisations who might help with some kind of advocate. I'm absolutely knackered so not totally with it atm, sorry.

UsingPredominantlyTeaspoons · 26/09/2011 17:01

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Catitainahatita · 26/09/2011 16:51

Oh no. Only just seen this Double; don't think that we have forgotten about you. It sounds like -if the demotion and pay cut are to happen-that you will need to proceed to legal arbitration (which I realise you don't want to do because of it tiring you further).
All I can say is that in the short term you need to rest and get over the meeting. Then think about how to proceed.
In the meantime I'm sending a unMN as I think you need it.

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved · 25/09/2011 03:14

Sorry phone typing bloody awful....

A. Grudging & hard, used many techniques on here, couldn't have done it without thank u
B. Got most of what I needed, some adjustments easier than others... Physical ones easiest, hours & ability to work from home grudging but agreed, role change to make everything possible really really grudging, pay review laughed in my face at...
C. At end if meeting got told to do something that put me in an incredibly painful situation the following week... Showed they still don't actually care/ understand/ give a flying fuck...

So in all came out relieved It wasn't worse but knowing all my prep had been needed...

Then got their minutes of the meeting... Which strongly implies I am being demoted two levels & pay will be reviewed...

Am exhausted & depressed, I don't have anything left to fight with, all reserves have been used up, physically, mentally, emotionally. I am in a really dark place right now.

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DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved · 25/09/2011 03:04

So sorry not to post earlier, physical collapsed after the meeting due to pushing self beyond limits in order to prepare for it, & now on Phone which is excruitiating to type on so will keep it short...

A. Meeting was grudging in

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Catitainahatita · 20/09/2011 16:35

Bump
Any update for us DoubleLife?

startAfire · 15/09/2011 07:20

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Catitainahatita · 15/09/2011 03:23

Fingers crossed here in anticipation (although it's still Wednesday over here). Will be thinking about you tomorrow morning (afternoon for you!)
Good luck.

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved · 14/09/2011 23:41

Great advice thanks all, thistledew I have done some more prep along the lines of your suggestions, thanks.

I have also written down a few 'broken record' sentences to learn & repeat ad nausium to get them to stick to the point...

Cross fingers for me tomorrow afternoon!

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startAfire · 13/09/2011 07:40

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startAfire · 13/09/2011 07:35

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Catitainahatita · 13/09/2011 03:23

Thisteldew speaks much sense Double. I also think if you are only alloted an hour this could help you deflect the derailing. As she and I suggest make a list of replies to derailment questions/gambits and memorise them. I also agree that by "keeping things friendly" probably isn't a good aim. I would aim for polite and civil; but not friendly. Friendly means there is confidence in each other and this -from what I gather is not the case. You being friendly might be maknig it easier for them to belittle the problem; they don't see it worth dealing with.

Try hard not to let "feeling squished" overwhelm you in the meeting. Remember you have everything on your side, starting with the relevant employment legislation. You are in the right. You are doing them a favour by trying to come to a civil agreement; not the other way round. It is not for you to be making sacrifices to fit in with them; rather the other way round. The ball is in their court not yours.

Thinking of you.

Thistledew · 12/09/2011 22:37

Re the belittling and blaming. Remind them to stick to the facts. Say "I can see that we disagree on how this has come about, you say x, I say y, but what is important is that the situation is z and we need to agree on how to reach a solution".

OP - it does seem that you have prepared well and already presented them with the information they need, but you may find that a document structured in the way I have suggested will help you maintain a structure to the meeting, and focus on the important points.

I do hope it helps. It is much easier to plan and present things when it is about someone else's problems, not your own.

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved · 12/09/2011 22:15

Ok, so being analytical, they get marks for subtle Belittling & blaming...

How do you deal with them without letting them end up 'Diverting'?

If I don't reply I am tacitly agreeing that I'm not worthwhile?
If I start making the point that surely this is an important issue worth the time, then am justifying my own worth & wasting time communicating that I am worth focusing to, instead of actually focusing on the issues ...

Btw thistledew my email contained an agenda, key outputs & summary of docs. I had had an informal 'chat' last week & talked about my work plan & the job role... Maybe that's what I should reply?

I still don't understand what goes through their minds, I look at them & see the similiarites, they must look at me & see differences...

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garlicbutty · 12/09/2011 22:13

Fantastic advice, thistledew, imo. Wish I'd had you with me back then!

Good luck, Double. Be the boss. xx

Thistledew · 12/09/2011 22:05

I wouldn't try too hard to 'keep things friendly' as you put it.

Of course you need to remain civil and professional, but this is a work issue that you have to resolve, not a disagreement with your sister.

A formal, neutral tone will have more impact, and will make your points stronger. Being too friendly may suggest that you are not taking it very seriously.

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved · 12/09/2011 21:58

Thanks for the speedy reply, reassuring you think it wasn't that good either. Start to lose faith in the way I am feeling as their way of being never cracks, never doubts their rightness... Starts me doubting everything. That's why am dreading this meeting!

Don't feel up to trying to get a premeeting, sensible though it sounds, am in too much pain & need the next few days to psych self up... Confession, am scared of them, I want to run away & I have to engage them instead & act like I don't see how much they despise me.

Right, being a wuss now, will be better tomorrow again. Key words in documents. Trying to write back in a way that corrects their idea that im not doing things right, but still sounding friendly.

Want to keep trying the civilised way until I have no other option, & hope they make it possible to do my job & support me & my baby for a bit longer.

I don't get why people would be so dismissive of another humans most basic needs... Esp women to other women, don't need men to keep up the inequality :(

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Thistledew · 12/09/2011 21:56

You sound like you have prepared well, but I agree that you should prepare a summary document. Not because they need saving from having to read and consider the issues fully, but because it will help you to keep the meeting on track. I would suggest that you prepare something much long the lines of the following and send it to the relevant people before the meeting, on Wednesday afternoon if at all possible.

  1. Summary of the facts and chronology. Keep to the facts as you see them and avoid matters of opinion, or things that are open to interpretation/disagreement.
  1. Your aims of the meeting. What you say is important to achieve, and what they may also consider important.
  1. Why it is important that they make the changes you are suggesting. What is the importance to the business, what is the importance to you.
  1. What are the steps that need to be taken to achieve the outcomes you need.

Attach to the summary a copy of the work plan you have already drafted, but be prepared to work through it an amend it during the meeting if necessary.

Take notes as you go through the meeting, and don't be afraid to ask people to pause to allow you time to write if necessary.

Try to take control of the meeting from the outset. Start off by saying "Thank you for agreeing to meet with me. You will have the summary document I have prepared, which I have prepared so that we can focus on the most important issues that we have to discuss in the next hour".

In terms of how to deal with the derailing tactics they may use, you can use your presentation of the summary and the one hour time limit you have been given to your advantage. If they try to derail, say "I note what you are saying, but it is taking us away from the key issues. I will take a note to address it and put my thoughts in writing after this meeting". If they insist in discussing irrelevant matters, challenge them on it. Say "I cannot see how this relates to the matters we need to discuss. Please can you explain". Make them justify going off track, rather than you justifying keeping them on it. If discussions are going around in circles, remind them of the limit of time and move on to the next point you need to discuss.

I'm not sure if this is a feminist analysis of discourse, or even a particularly feminist way of doing things (if such a thing exists), but hopefully it will help you to play them at their own game and retain the power balance in your favour.

I hope this helps. Good luck with your meeting.

edd1337 · 12/09/2011 21:39

If all else fails, call the Daily Mail and sell your story. They'd jump over a thing like this

garlicbutty · 12/09/2011 21:36

Huh, so they reckon an hour is enough because they don't think there's much to discuss ... and can't be arsed to attend to your very diligent work? No wonder you felt squished.

What you've done sounds amazing!

Can you request a pre-meeting meeting, for the purpose of guiding them through your submission? It does look like the right time to start worrying them a bit more - use plenty of buzzwords to suggest they may be in trouble if they don't look after you, so how handy that you've provided them with an ideal solution.

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved · 12/09/2011 21:18

Such good advice & support thank you. Been reading all comments on my phone but dufficult to post from it...

Meeting on thurs, sent off a compilation of documents today, with a draft agenda as noone has committed to what's going to be discussed. I also pointed out that my health is suffering even though working less hrs as nothing else has been adjusted (physical environment, duties, travel, etc), & wm keen to get some decisions on thursday due to the pain am in.

I and also queried that they've only made the meeting an hr, after saying they've been too busy to meet for a number of weeks, I worry an hr isn't enough & decisions will be put off until another meeting, & who knows when that will be.

Btw I didn't write it in the way am telling you, was very nice & friendly.

I attached medical letters, a document from me explaining what this means in terms of everyday limitations & abilities, how this impacts on my job then suggested a variety of reasonable adjustments they could trial.

I also wrote a draft work plan, & explained how it could work for them & me, and also explain why a role change that's being recruited for currently would be good for me (they not keen as they don't understand my disability nor the role).

I was comprehensive but structured as they won't do anything they don't have to, & they keep saying they don't know how o help/ didn't know it meant xxx etc. For the last 9 mths I've been waiting for them to do what the law states, & they've not done anything, so have basically laid it all out for them so if they want to, it's easy for them to help me.

Wise to be vague here but wanted to check whether am being over sensitive...

Got email reply straight away saying 1 hr will be enough, no comment on the agenda. Then another mail a while after saying that in future I should give them a summary document as this much documentation is going to take a lot of time for them to go through.

It's so hard not to feel squished... Like I am not worth any effort & am being too demanding... theyve been perfectly polite about everything, but leave me feeling worthless

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startAfire · 12/09/2011 21:15

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Catitainahatita · 12/09/2011 21:12

Checking in here too. Keep us posted!

startAfire · 12/09/2011 08:51

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