Feminists Against Abortion?

HS, I never meant to suggest that men have no responsibility. Sorry if it looked that way. But this isn't a thread about whether men should ever ejaculate into a woman without agreeing on a course of action if she becomes pregnant. It's about what happens when a woman is pregnant.

At that point, she's the one with all the responsibilities and, in my view, she therefore merits as wide a choice of options as possible. The man's opinions/options/actions are relationship issues - that's if he hasn't already disappeared over the horizon. The woman cannot run away from her pregnancy, so she has all the rights and responsibilities over it.

ComradeJing, a late-stage abortion does involve induced birth. It would be possible for this to be done without killing the foetus, then put the baby in IC if needed and dispose of it otherwise - adoption or the care system.

The fact that this isn't happening already suggests the demand for babies isn't quite as strong as anti-choicers say.

I will name no names. :o

Anyway despite our differences in opinion on several matters there are -ahem- some posters I quite like and admire for the zeal with which they defend their positions.

Yes, I think less need for abortions pretty much says it for me. I would like for less women to be raped. Rape ain't fun; I've been there. I'd like women AND men to be more careful about/informed on/able-to-get contraception. I'd like girls/women who aren't ready for sex to not feel like they have to have it. And so on.

Heck, developing a non-surgical procedure (for men) would go a long way to solve some of the problems. I imagine the state would have a lot more money to help people at the end of the day if a male birth control pill could be placed on the market.

I am reluctantly pro-choice. I realize that safe, legal abortions are a necessity, but also realize that they make me sad.

My "feminist" reasons (though I have more or less been told on this site that to have even the slightest hesitation about abortions for any reason and at any time up until birth makes me a slobbering, fetus worshipping misogynist) are as follows.

1. Women have been coerced and at times downright forced into abortions they didn't want because men didn't want physical proof that they'd been cheating on their wives, or didn't want to provide financially for the child.

2. Why does being a mother seem so at odds with having a life? Men create the possibility of children right left and center, and still manage to get an education, work in high-powered careers, etc ,etc. Why is it not the same for women? (Obviously, the physical side of being pregnant would put some things on hold for a year or so.) But why are there not support systems in place so that women achieve things even with children?

Really interesting thread.

Garlic your post up thread is exactly how I feel about abortion.

A question though. Someone a while ago said that if you a pro-choice you should support abortion up until the point of natural birth for any reason. I thought this was crap tbh and, if I'm honest, unless it's for medical reasons only support abortion until the baby could survive outside of the mother. Does this just mean I see women as incubators though and am I dividing abortion into good and bad?

Also I do think that men should take more responsibility for their sperm but I think that there is a large danger that by giving men equal responsibility to a woman he could then prevent her from aborting.

If anyone wants an insight into what a society without abortion is like, this is an excellent documentary about Guatemala. It's only 25mins long and well worth watching:

are you arguing for a restriction on women's choices holyShmoley? I hoped you were saying that in addition to abortion on demand you'd like to see men exercising more responsibility?

holyShmoley, I think SuchProspects has answered you clearly. I'd like to re-stress the point that, when it comes to getting pregnant, men and women are not equal and never can be equal. By definition, men can't be pregnant or give birth. The ultimate responsibility is always the woman's. To restrict a woman's choices on the basis of theoretical equality is to deny her genetic reality and, indeed, to treat her as an incubator.

"if we are to have an equal society then men and women have to be equally responsible for sex and it's outcomes."

I don't think this is either possible or desirable. One of the big reasons abortion as a free choice for women is important as a feminist issue is because pregnancy happens to a woman's body. There's no way for a man to shoulder that physical aspect. It has physical consequences for the woman even if everything goes swimmingly. There is no way to change that at the moment, and I don't think it would be in any way useful to put men through what women go through just to even things up. Massive jumps in medical technology might one day make pregnancy independent of the body - I think a lot of people would find that undesirable - but it wouldn't necessarily mean that women couldn't get pregnant unless they wanted to.

For what it's worth I'm a pro-abortion feminist (I really dislike that so many pro-choice people are keen to say no-one is pro-abortion). I don't see a foetus as a person and I'd rather see hundreds of abortions than one child born who wasn't wanted. I'd prefer a culture that was more accepting of the choice to terminate a pregnancy for social reasons and less gungho about the idea of struggling with a child that wasn't really wanted.

Never-the-less I see that the law has to be pro-choice not pro-abortion. Forcing or coercing women into abortion is heinous. I can see how someone could be an anti-abortion feminist who would like to see more people be prepared to carry a foetus to term in less than ideal circumstances but thinks the law should be pro-choice because forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy is heinous.

As well as all the other arguments, there is a class issue too. There is no country or culture in the world where women do not try to control their fertility. In countries where it is illegal, there are still abortions - some times with fatal consequences. For wealthy women of course, safe abortions are possible - even if they have to travel to another country to obtain one. For poor women, their options are not so great and sometimes result in an unwanted child but in huge huge numbers, result in a dangerous and unhygenic attempt at an abortion.

Every restriction that is put on access to abortion makes women a little less human and a little more of a walking incubator. I happen to think the UK law has it about right - although it still irritates me that it is not available on request.

she also might not actually feel any guilt because she knows it is the right thing to do for her - this seems very hard for many to get their head around

Yes, because that is the basic reason for 'abortion on demand': freedom to choose, not to "choose" only when all the alternatives are too dire to contemplate.

Post-abortion stress syndrome, or whatever it's called, is made up. Obviously abortions are distressing for many, as are miscarriages. The distress doesn't go on to blight a woman's life for ever, though, as anti-choicers claim. Lifetime consequences are what women risk when their only options are DIY abortions or unwanted children.

does it matter how a women has fallen pregnant, could be that her and her partner were drunk got carried away and took a risk, she forgot to take the pill, partner didn't pull out in time, contraception failure then all the terrible scenarios that for some make it ok for a women to allow herself to make such an appalling decision

the only reason a women should have a termination is because she wants to. for many women it is not about circumstances she is in it is just that she does not want to be pregnant at that point in her life, and that she also might not actually feel any guilt because she knows it is the right thing to do for her

this seems very hard for many to get their head around. I had a termination and feel no guilt, how i fell pregnant and my circumstances are irrelevant my decision does not need to be justified to anyone. my wanting a termination (and it never crossed my mind to carry on with the pregnancy) was totally about me making a choice about my life and having control over my body

we need to stop putting termination into catorgies of bad and good when it is ok and we can be supportive and when we can not, we need as women to be behind other women and give the support some women may need after or for those who feel they have no choice help them see there are options , for the women who are having multiple terminations look at the real reasons why she has so little respect over her body instead of making her feel worse about herself and most of all respect a women?s decision that she makes for herself

Contraception can fail! I am the only woman in my circle who's never had an abortion. Not a single one of them was due to reckless behaviour by the woman. And there's rape. And husbands who have affairs when their wife is pregnant.

Unless it's possible to end a pregnancy that's already begun, I don't see how women have any real control over their own destiny.

Why put all the responsibility on women? Because it is women's problem, unless you're talking theoretically. A pregnancy, however, is not theoretical.

yes but unless you are a teenage girl wanting a council flat, or an emotionally unhinged singleton desperate to trap a man you can't get yourself pregnant can you?

i thought being a feminist meant that you strive for all women to have total control over their life

maybe i have got it all wrong and that is what it is about until the debate about termination comes up and then there are some loopholes, how hypocritical. choose not to have a termination yourself, your choice your body but never can it be acceptable for you to decide what is right for other women and then claim to be a feminist, you are not

I thought holy was promoting barrier methods and saying that men should take more responsibility, and it is hard to imagine having a penis and being so reckless as to unwanted pregnancy that you don't put a condom on before you put it in someone's minge, and perhaps pointing out that women are bearing all the burden in terms of adverse effects of contraception and terminations. But would like to hear more.

I don't know what 'liberal abortion' is either. I'd welcome more info from HolySchmoley, if that poster has time to elaborate.