"Honour killing"

Ed: You have completely missed the point but this thread is not about rape so I'll leave it there.

Hang on a minute, we're talking about 'honour killings' which, as far as I'm aware, is something we call killings of women by family members within specific communities.

Surely we're allowed to criticise those communities that cultivate 'honour killings' and fully examine what part different practices have to play in this crime that is ultimately about male control.

Seriously, edd, I'm so not surprised that women are regularly harassed at the kind of place where you hand out. Just saying, ...

Sounds like you're accusing me in particular

Here's an idea. Two men go into a pub for a pub lunch. They're dressed smartly, lookin' good. They have lunch and leave. Apparently it was a gay bar. Were they lucky not to have been sexually assaulted?

Nope. They know in advance where they are going

^Ed you totally missed the point.

We are not talking about rape apology. It might be one of your favourite subjects, but it is not what this thread is about.

Stop dragging threads down to the lowest common denominator.^

Certainly not a favourite subject. Though I am arguing with someone who believes in guilty until proven innocent

(Tissues in bin, back on track)

Beachcomber, I didn't actually mean that SaF was having a pop at a culture, but just a general observation of what I've experienced from looooooooooong years on message boards discussing stuff like this. Sooner or later, things always seem to morph into some kind of attack on the minority group seen to be connected with whatever the OP is about.

I'll apologise in advance for going waaaay off on a tangent here (and promise not to do it again! :) )

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by religious attire worn in Pakistan. If you mean a salwar kameez, I've got a wardrobe full of them and I'm not Pakistani or muslim. I just love how they look and it's the next best thing to wearing your pj's for comfort! Did you mean something else like a burkha?

In my view, there are all sorts of clothing women wear that I think to be "dehumanizing" and could be seen as part of comodifying and objectifying of women by men. Although I don't immediately think of religion-connected clothing (e.g. Amish plain dress and cap, nun's habit, hijab, etc.) I do accept that it could be viewed that way. What I tend to think of more is highly sexualised, revealing clothing like hotpants, platform heels and tight strappy tops.

I accept that we tend to think that the former have no choice in what they wear - that acceptable attire is defined by the men who dominate the faith community they are part of. Likewise, we tend to assume that women in barely-there clothing dashing from club to club on a Saturday night freely choose what they wear.

Maybe in both cases, the concept of "choice" is rather opaque.

Ed you totally missed the point.

We are not talking about rape apology. It might be one of your favourite subjects, but it is not what this thread is about.

Stop dragging threads down to the lowest common denominator.

Here's an idea. Two men go into a pub for a pub lunch. They're dressed smartly, lookin' good. They have lunch and leave. Apparently it was a gay bar. Were they lucky not to have been sexually assaulted?

Seriously, edd, I'm so not surprised that women are regularly harassed at the kind of place where you hand out. Just saying, ...

Here's an idea then

Why don't YOU go to a bar wearing hardly anything and see what happens. You genuinly think you wont be harassed? What rock are you living on?

The analogy may not be comparable, but people steal just like people rape

Greythorne - Edd, Are you camille paglia? :o

(wipes coffee off monitor)

Woooooooooosssshhhhhhh.

That was KRICRI's point flying over Ed's head at great height and great speed.

What a low opinion of men you have there Ed.

And comparing rape to theft is offensive and a hopelessly ineffective analogy.

I don't think SaF was 'having a pop' at a culture. I think that is unfair but perhaps I have misunderstood you?

I think she was saying how due to 'otherness' and ignorance, it is relatively easy for people to not think too much about things like honour killings, beatings, etc because they happen far away from home in a culture that is foreign to them (except we know they happen in the UK too). She then went on to express how she feels about religious attire for women (I think clumsily).

I do happen to think myself (and I am talking specifically in the context of honour killings) that the religious attire worn by say the women in Pakistan is dehumanizing. I think it is part of the commodification and objectification of the women by the men.

As I said before though, I don't think the women there are asked how they feel about it.

That sounds like that "asking for it" argument

Yes a woman can wear whatever she likes anywhere she wants, but if she's dressed in a microskirt with a low-cut top and she walks into a bar/pub/club that's quite rough and known to be popular with men who like to get drunk, they are are just asking for trouble. Same as walking into a ghetto with an armani suit and a rolex. You can wear the suit and rolex by all means, but you're just asking for trouble by walking into a rough area

To NOT expect to be harassed or assaulted is just naive

Clumsy, but not the least bit surprising. In most internet discussions, sooner or later most discussions about something "bad" that happens within a specific cultural/ethnic/religious group tends to descend into someone having a pop at that group for different reasons.

Start a fire said, "and yes people can do as they please but that doesn't mean there aren't consequences, intended and unintended, positive and negative to their choices." This was with respect of women making choices of attire related to their faith, or perhaps other beliefs. I suppose it could apply not just to say Muslim women in hijab, Plymouth Brethern's in scarves or Orthodox Jewish women with long skirts and wigs or scarves.

But, what the comment reminded me most of was the purpose of recent Slut Walks - that women should be able to dress as they wish and not be seen as responsible for the consequences of what they choose to wear.

Does that mean it's okay to wear Daisy Duke shorts and a crop top and not expect to be sexually harassed or assaulted, but not okay to wear a scarf or modest dress because of what others might believe about you for doing so?

Whilst we're on the subject of assumptions - I specifically said the Quar'an.

Whether or not one believes in the hadith depends on the sect to which one belongs. Chapter 6 38 states 'Nothing have we ommitted from the Book' and Quar'anists believe that hadiths are thus irrelevant.

with love from Smartarse.

To be fair, and I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, it was kind of weird to go from honour killings to the choice of women to wear religious attire.

It was kinda clumsy.

But the hadith specifies what should be covered and that includes hijab.

Did you think Muslim women didn't know that and we are just stupid?

Did you think that this was the first time some smartarse had said this and not understood just how patronising it is?

I am very sorry that discussing honour is not interesting enough for you.

I agree, beach.

And I think the example about wedding dresses/namechanging is a good point - because it is possible to be a Muslim and a feminist, and to wear the veil but be aware of the issues surrounding it, too.

Are we talking about collusion here? I mean what each one of us can consider to be colluding in one's own oppression?

Like when we do stuff like put wedding dresses on and change our names?

I changed my name when I got married (some radfem I am huh?). If somebody said to me that they understood why I did it on an individual level, but thought that at a group level my behaviour could be considered damaging, I would have to hold up my hands and agree whilst blaming the patriarchy.

I think all women do stuff like that to some extent and we should give each other a break over it and be careful of with each other when we talk about this stuff.

There are no doubt many reasons for wearing religious attire, but the women who find themselves at risk for honour killing no doubt don't have much choice in the matter.