"Honour killing"

I didn't suggest immodest attire could be a reason for an honour killing. I said that I had read it in a document (it was from a series about the rights of women in Pakistan by Amnesty International).

I specified that I was talking about women's clothing in the context of honour killings. (ie not all women in Pakistan).

I have already agreed on this thread that domestic violence against women in the UK, comes from the same place as that of honour killings (ie misogyny, objectification and commodification of women ).

didn't finish post, lucky to have benefit of superior minds pointing out how and where we are going wrong

See, I think we all get muddled up when we think other people will know what we are talking about, when we don't always! :)

Beachcomber, when you referred to clothing worn by Pakistani women, I thought Salwar Kameez because well, that seems to be the main type of clothing Pakistani women wear both here and in Pakistan. You were thinking of something more like a burkha though, which from what I understand, is worn only by a minority of women in Pakistan. I think both would see what they wear as in keeping with their faith. See how easy it is to get confused?

To sort of get back to the "honour killings" theme though, Beach, you suggested that one of the reasons a woman could be subject to an honour killing would be due to "immodest attire."

But, I keep coming back to the excuses men in Britain often give for attacking or killing their partners. There are often comments like that they dressed to slutty, flirted with other men, had affairs - a form of "immodest behaviour," so not miles from the rationalisation used for honour killings.

Often in reports where men have killed partners / ex-partners, there are suggestions (or direct statements) that the men felt humiliated by the woman. She laughed at him, she taunted him, she flirted or had an affair under his nose or behind his back, she didn't respect him, in short . . . she did something to dishonour him or in some way, violated perhaps an unspoken "code" of acceptable behaviour for women.

we are so so lucky

Beach......noone is talking about the Burka.

Josephine - Are you still lecturing me
on my own religion? Yes, that is patronsing. I'm fully aware of the different types of veiling and the different rulings around them because it is my actual religion. You tried to claim that no veilings were obligatory, I corrected you.

KRICRI, I didn't realise that salwar kameez is religious attire, I thought it was traditional dress, so yes I did mean the burqa.

I agree with you that hotpants etc are objectifying and I agree with you about the 'opaque choice' to wear highly sexualized clothing in a society which fetishizes women's body parts and female sexuality.

GothAnne, I was careful to specify that my thoughts about women's clothing were in the context of honour killings. I happened to speak about Pakistan because I have just read and linked to a document from Amnesty international about Pakistan. I am currently reading about honour killings in India and it is just as depressing.

I imagine that the women in the very traditional communities which support honour killing do not have a great deal of choice in what they wear. I was referring to women from these communities only - I do not assume to know anything about the clothing choices of all the women in Pakistan or any other country. The reason I think that these particular women do not have much choice about clothing is because 'immodest attire' was one of the pretexts given for honour killing in one of the documents I read.

I have no desire for this discussion to turn into a burqa thread - I have always avoided such threads up until now.

too fast and missing words..... I feel like Cod.

Goth........Who mentioned the fucking Burka?not me.

All types of religious clothing, and other requirements that men have imposed upon women via religion is fair games actually. It pins a woman as obedient this in turn is a refelction on men of the family, this in turn makes them they have the right to kill their daughters, wives and sisters when they are not obedient. It's all part of the same story,

Goth. Go and bang another drum.

And as far as I'm concerned there is no place for any watering down of killing your own flesh and blood in a predominantly secular society..

Oh I give up. Do you honestly think you are the only Muslim feminist on MN? Or the only person who has heard of google? And you accuse me of being patronising.

What I said was the Quar'an does not specify the wearing of veils. Which is true. As you are no doubt aware, there is disagreement amongst Muslims about the authenticity / interpretations / validity of hadith just as there are disagreements between Christians.

Personally, I think it would be entirely valid to say to a Catholic that attending confession is not a requirement to be a good Christian so your analogy doesn't really work as you intended.

Also for some reason you have decided that veil = hijab which it doesn't. the hijab is only one type of veil that Muslim women may wear - up to and including the burqua.

I'm not dismissing it Josephine, just pointing out that most Muslims follow the Quran AND Sunnah, hence hadith is important, hence the widespread belief that hijab should be worn.

It's like going up to a church-going Catholic and saying they don't need to attend confession because Protestants don't.

You could have found that out yourself with a quick Google, mind.

And Muslims are a minority within the UK - should we dismiss everything they say?

Goth - I don't think we need another burka thread, we've had plenty of them, certainly I have participated in quite a few both on here, on AIBU and on In the News. Personally I think it's impossible to be a Muslim and a feminist, but then I put all religions in the same basket, so I would say the same of a Christian/ Mormon/ whatever. Obviously a lot of people disagree with me. However, I think that is a topic for another thread. Feel free to start one, I would be delighted to have a Muslim feminist give me her perspective.

Well yes, it's a bit weird to tie what is seen as "honour based crimes" to Islam, or what Muslim women wear in different countries. There are plenty of perpetrators and victims who are Hindu and Sikh, for example. That would point to it being something more related to regional origins (e.g. South Asia) than specific faith or cultural origins.

Josephine - Quranists are a tiny minority sect within Islam, so to use their interpretations to say that hijab isn't required is wrong and patronising.

Beachcomber - Who exactly doesn't ask Pakistani women about their clothing? Do you think Pakistani women are not capable of having their own discourse about clothing? Or is it that in a similar manner to "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound", that if Muslim women have their own conversations, but no one can be bothered listening, they aren't talking at all?

No, Posie you do not have the right to turn everything into a burqa thread, you've had enough of those already.

I despair. I know plenty of Muslim feminists, but so many stay away from mainstream feminism because of crap like this, having to tackle the same old arguments.

Again, this thread is about Honour Killing, something that impacts women from a variety of religious and cultural backgrounds.

If you want a burqa thread, go and start one. I won't be there. IFAIK, all the Muslim women on MN avoid them now, so they won't be there either. So you can have your burqa thread with no Muslim women on it at all. How productive and not even slightly dubious that will be.

What has rape myth got to do with honour killings and the language used which alter the fact that a man or men has killed a female member of his family because she has 'shamed' him?

I sort of agree with edd on one aspect but not the other.

Yes, it may be true that a woman who is dressed in sexy clothing is more likely to be chatted up than one that is dressed in a very covered up fashion if she enters a bar.
I've been to bars dressed up and been chatted up, when my hair scraped back and I'm dressed in baggy cover-ups it does not happen.

OK, I agree that is true, and, well, there is no harm in chatting up if the man is respectful when the women tells him she is not interested.

BUT, rape is something else entirely and it does not matter what a woman is wearing when it comes to rape.

IT seems you didn't read my posts earlier and you think im just derailing. Nevermind