"Honour killing"

It is widely recognised that in south asia the women tend to be more religious then the men

I would actually argue that this is a global rather than an exclusively South Asian phenomenon; just look at all those churches that are basically run by female volunteers.

That women internalise and perpetuate the values of the patriarchy in this way has been observed for quite a long time, too. It was one of the primary reasons why the anarchist and feminist Emma Goldman was in fact opposed to female suffrage in the USA. Her argument was roughly that American women were bound to vote for a more conservative, oppressive society. Sadly she was not entirely wrong.

Women can be as bad as men is the message I am getting from nailak's post. Nailak, no sarcasm intended at all -none whatsover, but this is no surprise to me.

Beach take a look at the picture of the mother in the op, was she wearing burka or shalwar kameese? where did you come to your conclusion that honour killings occur in communities in which women wear burka? since they happen in hindu and sikh communities too?

from what i gather from people around me, the misogynist concepts within south asian society are often upheld by women, in fact women are often the perpetrators as they are more concerned with upholding traditional values and concepts then the men. It is widely recognised that in south asia the women tend to be more religious then the men, and more superstitious, the temples will be full of women, pakistani women undertake rituals similar to their hindu counterparts, such as burning things, etc etc, and men hardly ever are involved in this.

The rules may have been written by the patriarchy, but the women enforce them. when you want to force a woman in to marriage, it will be her mother and aunties putting on the guilt trip, and being violent against the woman. from their point of view, it is seen as we all went through it and survived, to preserve our honour and families honour etc, so you should to.

in the example in the op, the mother was involved too, and in many honour killings and examples of women being forced in to abusive marriages, you will se the women complicit and supportive of the abuse, and encouragin of the abuse.

this is one of those areas in which women need to start supporting other women.

I see them as essentially the same, Bob, but, then, I won't lie I am biased as f* being somebody who, erm, dislikes religion intensely.

SGM, you are putting a lot more eloquently some of what I was trying to say upthread. I'm actually thinking that the use of "feminism"/women's rights as a fig leaf by racist individuals otherwise not disinclined to engage in some sexism themselves deserves a whole thread for itself some time.

On the other hand, I do think its unacceptable for me, as a "White" feminist, to dictate how other cultural/faith/national groups define and describe gender-based violence in their own communities.

This is in fact something that I still have a hard time sorting out for myself. On the one hand I absolutely believe - strongly so - that there are a few definite rights and wrongs. On the other, though, I'll have to admit that some of what I would define as such is heavily influenced by my being white, european educated middle class and non-religious. And I have to admit that - beyond the theoretical, intellectual level - I completely lack any kind of understanding for e.g. active support of certain gender roles on the basis that god likes it that way.

Sorry to go on about this but I'm a bit pedantic.

KRICRI you said;

Beachcomber, when you referred to clothing worn by Pakistani women, I thought Salwar Kameez because well, that seems to be the main type of clothing Pakistani women wear both here and in Pakistan. You were thinking of something more like a burkha though, which from what I understand, is worn only by a minority of women in Pakistan. I think both would see what they wear as in keeping with their faith. See how easy it is to get confused?

I think we all need to be careful how we express ourselves and we also need to be careful how we read people. I specified 'religious attire in the context of communities which practice honour killing' not 'clothing worn by Pakistani women' - two rather different things.

I understand that salwar kameez is traditional dress and not religious attire as such. It may well be in keeping with the faith of the women who choose this type of clothing but I don't think it is either religious attire nor clothing which dehumanizes women.

I'm surprised that confusion arose really but I will try to be even more specific next time.

Sorry, that should be certain religious belief (s).

I suppose it is not acceptable for anybody to dictate how cultural/faith/national groups define and describe gender-based violence in their own communities, but that does not stop an individual having thoughts on what this violence is and calling it what they want.

Other people can call it what they want, I just think of it as inexcusable violence. But then I cannot see how religious belief and feminism can peacefully co-exist, but that is just me.

Ceratin people here need an outlet I suppost. F-wording it seems the only way to let off some steam

What is it with the f-word today? I've not got anything against the f-word, but it seems as if everybody is using it in a 'look at me, I'm hard' kind of way. This applies to both sexes.

This is a thread about honour killings.

If it is turned into another thread about how crap the feminist section is, then all I can say is shame on you. Fucking listen to yourselves.

To be fair, though, women get treated badly here, too, so I don't think it is because you are men as such. The only way of knowing for certain is, of course, to have not said that you are men, but, this would be more or less impossible now.

People will tend to refute weird statements - that isn't lashing out against men, is it?

Again, you have it all wrong

Refute all you want, argue and disagree all you want. No problem this is an open forum. It seems the norm though to take words out of context and throw personal attacks in certain people direction

Can we please shut the fuck up about how shit is is to be a male poster here?

a) We have already gone over why some male posters come across badly and are therefore badly received.

b) It is getting in the way of discussions.

c) It is tedious as fuck.

K..... Do you have any evidence of those reasons stated by men that beat their wives?

Because for me a man's honour is just about controlling a woman's behaviour.

convince yourself the feminist section is men vs women.

No ones saying that

You are right though Bob, if a man has a different opinion we are called RAs, misogynisyt, asked questions whish we answer then told we are derailing the thread then reported