"Honour killing"

Sorry, but nailak appears to know about the culture of arranged marriages and I believe her explanation, but I suppose this would be accepting that women can do wrong which, of course, it is not acceptable to say here. But I'll say it anyway: women can do wrong. There.

Wamster 'choice feminism' sucks.

a) Because it places the blame for misogyny on women.

b) Because it pretends that misogyny or the internalizing of misogyny is a choice.

c) Because it takes the focus off men.

d) Because it isn't feminism and gets in the way of the analysis of patriarchal systems and values.

i mean in cases i know of attempted arranged marriage to someone the girl is not happy with, it has been the mother and female family, the men culturally neglect their islamic role as wali and percieve this to be "womens business", and it is the females that are pushing for it, while the men are not even bothered about their culture, in fact the men think all the stuff to do with the kids is womens business.

I have phrased the previous post in a confusing way; should be 'members of those groups and other non-privileged groups'. The fact that people tolerate/endure a situation doesn't mean they accept or willingly support it.

nailak - being 'educated', in this country, doens't necessarily mean you've been equipped to challenge patriarchy at all. I don't see why being 'educated' means these women somehow should 'know better'.

Yet individual men clearly do do wrong.

This thread started with a post about a 17 year old girl who was murdered. It's pretty awful that the women who've been discussed most aren't women like her.

internalizing patriarchal oppression? i understand, but isnt it more then that? women uphold parts of the culture that are not about patriarchal oppression, so isnt it a reflection of the tendency of women to uphold culture in general?

and a lot of the women are educated and capable of thinking for themselves, such as in the link it mentioned a doctor etc,

the women in this country are capable of going against mens wishes, but it seems that when apart from the host country makes them want to preserve all of their culture including the evil bits, due to some percieved sense of loss and wish to preserve continuity.

i cant understand this. i mean i can understand abandoning babies you cant afford to keep, but i cant understand killing your own daughter, that you loved and raised.

Oh, dittany, what do you think I think about these men? I think they are scum and I hate them for it. Hating these men does not make me immune to the faults of women, though.

There seems to be habitual 'confusion' around the concept of systems which privilege certain groups and the behaviour of members of those groups in relation to those systems. Does anyone believe that workers run capitalism by virtue of working in capitalist enterprises?

No, I'm ok thanks dittany. You?

I'm not frustrated, just slightly bemused that wamster honestly thinks that she's tumbled to the magic answer generations of brilliant women (and men) couldn't find. It's a touching faith in her own genius, which I suppose could be 'empowering' if it weren't so misplaced.

dittany, right, women do have a choice to fight patriarchal oppressive men. I agree wholeheartedly.

So, if you as a woman, have -rightly in my view-chosen to fight this system, what excuses have these women who carry out fgm got for not doing the same as you, then? Have they not got free will, too?

Lucky us. And it only needed one idiot to tell us so.

I am merely pointing out to you that if you genuinely believe women have no choice in the patriarchal system ( I don't share your belief, heck, this probably makes me more of a feminist than you) then, logically:

a, Men won't change the system because it suits them and they like things just as they are ta very much

b, The women are totally oppressed, brainwashed and incapable of acting against those men's wishes.

Isn't it better to accept that some women in the patriarchy have free will because of they do not, any attempt at change will be pointless.

Yes, it really is just that simple - women have a choice. Why on earth don't the silly fools just make the right choice? After all, we know women, unlike men, benefit from being totally immune to the pressures of society, culture and education. Glad we sorted that one out.

dittany no I was not rude or insulting to anybody, it was a genuine question.

I think you are a witterer of the highest order and my view is not obnoxious and no I don't think (or at least I would hope not) mn will reprimand me here as ai have been wholly reasonable and, frankly, your view that women can never do any wrong at all is just not reasonable, put it that way.

I mean, dittany, seriously can women ever do any wrong in your eyes?