"Honour killing"

there was a recent thread on women having to dress up for work (wear make-up and heels etc), being pressurised even if it wasn't in their contract. It was very interesting as I've been on threads about muslim clothing and how those women were not free to dress how they liked etc. Seems we have to follow our own rules in the West and will be judged on what we wear and how attractive we are, we're maybe not as 'free' as we think we are.

i understand now, it is like the beauty industry, we internalise the messages so that we all think we are fat and ugly :) and we tell other women they should dress up, wear make up etc.

in the uk communities, i dont think honor killings are acceptable or defended, the other stuff maybe,

it is called honour killings because that is what it is about and often it is not the husband killing his wife it is her family members killing her because she has bought shame upon them. i think with any murder if there is more than one person involved we find it more shocking and when it it?s her own family, her own father, brother and even mother involved how anyone can not be totally horrified by that.

how are women in these communities meant to deal with domestic violence if the act of honour violence and killings is (quietly) acceptable, this has to be dealt with, it does not mean dv is swept under the carpet but the whole attitude of many communities needs to totally change, communities need to recognise and be willing to do something about honour crime before anything changes otherwise dv of any kind will always be acceptable because it will be put down to keeping the honour of the family. there are other issues too fgm, forced marriages, forced termination for woman carrying girls that are all ties in with keeping the honour of the family

is systematic.

Yes, that's a good way to explain it SaF. I think one of the reasons that this subject is really interesting is because it can help us to explain why women themselves can be so resistant to feminism.

The 'inner voice of sexism' actually becomes part of us and part of our identity. Therefore feminism makes women uncomfortable because is perceived as to be questioning our very identity by questioning values and paradigms that we have internalized.

This natural human process of internalizing is a hugely powerful tool for a system like patriarchy - women police themselves and collude in the oppression of their group by acting on/holding internalized patriarchal values.

I think it is also a major reason in why having one's feminist consciousness raised is such a painful process (that and suddenly being able to see that the violence against women as systematic).

when you see this term I'd think no sane , normal thinking person would think of ' honour' or that it lessens the crime in any way. It just an easy, quick way of describing the motives/background or whatever - though it is a horrible term.

No, I'm not sure....I just thought they were...

Are you sure? I have followed a number of cases where the brother(s) or Uncles have been the instigators but appreciate this isn't a scientific analysis! The former are especially worrying as it suggests that it is a mindset that isn't shifting (in a generational sense).

In any event, the definition of domestic violence used by Government includes violence and abuse committed by family members - it isn't just partners. 'Honour' based violence and forced marriage are seen as subsets of domestic violence.

Honour killings are generally done by parents to children or by children....so I'm not sure why I'm talking about DV.

Nailik I wasn't meaning to imply that anyone here thinks you are a troll or posting in a troll like manner! Sorry if that is what you understood. What I meant is that there isn't a great atmosphere on here at the moment.

The question about internalising is a very very interesting one to explore. I think that you are right, it is a phenomenon that is little known and little discussed in the mainstream.

I am about to go out so don't have time right now for a discussion but will post some thoughts later.

In the meantime, here is a link which explains a bit (although not specifically in the context of honour killings). You may be familiar with the website it comes from - it is a site with some great articles on some of the principles of feminist analysis.

Internalized sexism

scratch that the link is wrong solace here

it could be true, but i am left still not understanding the internalisation of patriarchal oppression.

tbh the thing that puts me off feminism is the way people react when i ask questions, like i i am trying to understand a concept, and voice objections, then i am a troll, but at the same time i know other people must have thought of these objections and there are femenist counter arguements, that i would like to know, in order that i can be intellectually convinced.

another islamic based organisation that supports muslim women in all sorts of situations is solace a lot of their work is with abused women, or women are having difficulties due to control by their husbands, and lack of support.

i realise non muslims would be unlikely to want to get involved in or support this organisation.

My mum used to work supporting bi lingual children. Often they were looked after by the grandmother whilst the parents were at work. One of the things the children told my mother was that they were burned with a hot spoon if they were 'naughty'. This was a while back and maybe its not true who knows.

"not one wife beating man expects anyone to accept or understand his reasons"

Well, that is tosh, Posie, otherwise those men wouldn't plead not guilty and come out with a load of guff in mitigation. And you wouldn't get half-wits bleating on about "consequences".

So the 'honour' killing is done for different motives, but also the same motives. Control. The wife beater/murderer is the same evil as the the 'honour' or religious killer, he's the same controlling nasty piece of work but he usually operates alone not with his sons or wife to kill his daughter. And I'm not saying for one minute that couples never torture their children if they're white and atheist, but it's not culturally acceptable. There was a Muslim school up north that routinely hit, kicked and punched children, for no reason (not that there could be a good one) and noone complained, not one single parent.

The difference between an 'honour' killing and a beat your wife cause you've had too much to drink killing is that, and I shall tread carefully, not one wife beating man expects anyone to accept or understand his reasons, the state does not punish his wife for her actions that anger him either.....he is in all cases wrong.

One way of teaspooning is to look out for organisation that specifically deal with honour based crimes.

I can't link from my phone, but Southall Black Sisters are an amazing group and in desperate need of funding. If everyone on this thread went and donated some money to them, that would be a very positive outcome to this thread.

One way of teaspooning is to look out for organisation that specifically deal with honour based crimes.

I can't link from my phone, but Southall Black Sisters are an amazing group and in desperate need of funding. If everyone on this thread went and donated some money to them, that would be a very positive outcome to this thread.