Can you be a feminist housewife?

Sorry Truck, I'm not sure I understand you.

I am just explaining that in France, parents are financially helped by the state to stay at home. I'm only saying that because another poster asked way back up the thread of examples of countries which do this.

I agree that this does encourage one parent to stay at home and I agree that this person is nearly always the woman. On the other hand I believe that France has a higher % of women in paid employment than the UK does. I have never closely analysed the reasons for this.

Himalaya - there is no political will in France to view childcare as a shared responsibility between parents. Childcare is a mother's responsibility here - "aider les mères de famille" is a commonly-used phrase among politicians and nobody bats an eyelid.

I think until we start saying 'parenting' rather than mothering and/or fathering, we've still got a long way to go. Having said that, my partner and I do parent v differently. Whether that is because of gender or how we were parented (both from v gender-biased households) or even because I spend more time with the children and therefore the relationships and background knowledge is different, I couldn't really say.

Bonsoir

'I don't know any men who have done it but that is kind of another issue. ...'

That's the thing though, I think that IS the issue. And no one seems to want to talk about it.

Why do we still conceive of the role of mothering and fathering so differently, when in every other sphere of life there have been big steps in breaking down distinctions between traditional ideas on men's and women's roles.

Whenever i try to talk about this the discussion quickly flips to WOHM vs SAHM, childcare subsidies, legislation etc. But as you report legislation is fairly ineffective at changing the nature of the balance of childcare responsibility between men and women.

I don't get it. Why does no one want to talk about this issue?

I think that nobody can make a blanket rule about what is and is not the hardest job. We only know what is best for ourselves. I think you can uphold feminist principles, no matter what you choose to do with your life. What is really unfair is that when choice is not there without financial penalties or social condemnation..

Why a job has to be 'hard' to be recognised? It can be important, fullfilling, beneficial, and lots more.
I personally feel that SAHMs lose credidability when they start the 'its the hardest job' and 'i have to book all the holidays and renew the insurance, you don't know how busy i am' etc. When i was a SAHM (3dcs) it wasn't the 'busiest' time in my life, and not the 'hardest'. But it was probably the most fullfilling (for me). Working in a factory is 'hard' job but doesn't mean it is more fullfilling and stimulating than being SAHM.

Even in paid employment who said that working 'hard' makes you better or more important? Working 'smart' does.

Feminism is not about ensuring women WOH as much as possible.

It's not very feminist then is it?

It sounds like it encourages women to be out of the workplace for longer.

I have no idea of any actual figures but I suspect it is very rare for a father to take the leave.

How many men take the parental leave in France?

I've not seen a lot of interest from men or women in the UK about sharing the paternity/maternity leave.

Oh and what is fab about it is that the state make contributions to the person's state pension whilst they are on leave so they don't lose out there.

Yes, lots of people take it. It is generally women who take it though.

Lots of people do, lots of people don't. But the option is there and then people decide what they want to do based on their own circumstances. Which I think is pretty cool.

I would say in my circle of acquaintances , about half the families took the leave and about half didn't. I don't know any men who have done it but that is kind of another issue. It is legislatively an equal opportunity but of course we then get into a whole bunch of other issues.

LOL scottishmummy, at only 37 hours a week WOH I really would expect a major domestic contribution. 37 hours a week is a PT job in my world

Beachcomber do people actually take it? If so is it women or men who do so?

For me the important thing is that the DC are looked after and the house runs vaguely efficiently. How and who does it is a moot point.

Forgot to say - not everyone qualifies for this parental leave. It is not means tested but you have to have paid NI for something like 2 years out of the previous 4 years before you take the leave.

It is, of course, possible to be a feminist and not be in paid employment.

On the subject of paying parents to parent - I live in France and that is what happens here. It works well and everyone thinks it is normal.

They don't call it 'paying housewives' they call it 'parental leave'. You get 6 months after your first child and 3 years after your second.

The 3 year bit is broken into 3 yearly chunks. Either one of the parents can decide to take it and you can either work part time or not at all - you could say not work the first year and then go back part time for the 2nd and 3rd years. Or you could take the full 3 years off.

You don't get a huge amount of money but it is pretty generous considering you get it for three years. Childcare is also subsidised. So parents who choose to go right back to work are helped too.

It is generally women who take the leave but employers are not allowed to penalise you for having taken it.

to NormanTebbit

And I find your comment about external pressures/standards of attainment interesting. I suppose that's why I said you sound angry, because I can't find anything in what you say to show you actually enjoy working. Lots of people I know who combine both actually find working a relief (ie being able to concentrate on just one thing at a time, easily able to justify priorities and for someone else to take responsibility for things outside your remit, getting paid for it.) There are advantages to the workplace too!

I'm a SAHM BTW and think it's secretly dead easy compared with a proper job.

Oh no me! me! I've got the hardest job! Because I do both! One in the day and one in the evening! Hurrah!

Do I win a prize?

Good on both of you then, for choosing the hardest way.. though you do sound a bit angry. I personally wouldn't take on that kind of workload unless both my children were a bit older, but then I suppose we are lucky to have two adults running the show, and live somewhere where the cost of living is as low as we can make it.

I'm with SM.

The hardest job is a working mother, no contest.

yes if you like clichés of female goddess and children heaved to bosoms is 'ardest job i world,then all that hallmark emotional dribble would bring a tear to a glass eye

'a good mother is the most important job in the world' is much to close to 'a woman's place is in the home' for my liking.

How about 'being a good parent is one of the most important things you can do for another human being. It involves practical, emotional, intellectual and financial aspects. Apart from breastfeeding and pre-natal care there is no part of that that cannot be equally well done by a man or a woman, and there is no reason to assume that 'mothering' and 'fathering' are different roles'

...yes I know I'll need a bigger mug to fit all that on, but I like a big cup of tea

really?id say doing your own thing to your own internal standard without external pressure or attainments and tasks is incomparable.you describe tasks not a job

why the distinction about ft parent?i work ft but im always a parent,always switched on to the kids.yes i compartmentalise but no matter what im always a parent.