women expected to put themselves down?

It's frustrating though when I see women who are influenced and are expected to be what they are required to be from magazines. I've seen slim women wanting to lose weight and thinking they are overweight. It gets a bit much and I feel for them

edd1337, I also can't see men putting up with that kind of slander. They'd sue, surely?

Bob I agree it can be overcome. I had feminist parents and don't feel like I have to put myself down, although as others have said, I don't feel like it wins me any popularity points at all being as assertive as I am at work (although it has won me professional respect and a recent promotion...)

There's an excellent chapter in the Cordelia Fine 'Delusions of Gender' book about how women are marked down in the workplace for showing qualities of assertiveness, where men are rewarded for the same qualities. So being raised assertively is only a small part of the battle, you've then got to exist in a culture where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Is it any surprise women suffer more self-esteem issues than men when they're practically praised for having them? Women with self esteem issues are our role models apparently.

Women also put themselves down because they seem to suffer self-esteem issues more than men

there would be no market for the men's mags for sure. besides, degrading pictures of women sell the men's mags

I haven't read the whole thread, but had a long conversation about this topic with DP yesterday, prompted by my noticing the gossip magazine frontpages which were ALL directed at denigrating female appearances or insinuating they'd denigrated their own:

For starters (and yes I know it's all poisonous bile)

• 'Victoria Beckham is back to pre-baby weight but is considering a tummy tuck'
• 'Cheryl Cole hates the way she looks and can't look in a mirror.'
• 'Size 6 Jordan thinks she's too fat'
• 'TOWIE's someoneorother 'my boyfriend thinks if I was slimmer we'd be more famous'
• etc etc.

Trying to imagine the male equivalents makes you realise how ridiculous it all is. Can you imagine:

• 'Simon Cowell: Confidence shattered by unwanted all-over body-hair'
• 'Brad Pitt thinks his cock is too small'
• 'Benedict Cumberbatch - obsessed over his weight and only eats brocolli'

Would there even be a market for it? My DP was amazed when I explained how as a woman, it's considered immensely rude not to talk yourself down if other women are doing it, and admitting that you like your own body is practically a cardinal offense in a lot of circles.

Im assertive and argumentative. I get called a bitch. If I was a man id be called confident.

Another part of this is that an onlooker is ime more likely to think the man is correct if they see the sexes arguing. Men dont have to jump through hoops to prove their authority.

Well as long as it's fairtrade chocolate...

Exactly! It's another example Of talking ourselves down - assuming that people management skills come naturally because we are mothers.

For me, managing was about 100% easier than mothering and I'm really not sure of the ethics of offering a team chocolate buttons and a go on the iPad as a motivational tool....

Ahem. I was one of those!

I've been a worker for much longer than I've been a mother though garlic so I'm not sure that's the case for me. I started working when I was 15, started mothering when I was 35... So I'm not really sure how much of that I bring into the workplace. In fact, I'd be inclined to agree it's stereotypical bollocks - what about all the great female managers who don't have children?

It's interesting reading your posts, Kelly and Wilson.

You wouldn't do that with your children, now, would you? "It's very bad to trash the supermarket, but feel free to ignore my opinion" ... "Oh, I can't say my children are any good at anything, really, they're all right but a bit dull ..."

??

My fellow team leaders (male and female) always thought that women have better leadership & motivational skills because of the mothering instincts. I'm not sure if that's stereotyped bollocks - I'm not a mother - but agree the qualities required are largely similar.

I actually found it easier to start with my team at the beginning - 'team did XYZ, team member did ABC' came more easily than 'I did this'. But my allusion was always 'team did this because I am a part of team and also good at team work'.

See, even typing that out makes my teeth itch - it does NOT come naturally (to me) but it's really important. Also the organisation didn't view 'managing a team really well' as an achievement (cos of all those female-attributed people skills I guess ) so at one point if I wasn't talking up my team's achievements I would have been completely invisible.

Now that's interesting wilson I don't promote my teams achievements very easily. I wonder if that's an extension of the not self-promoting.

I realised it this year when a colleague in another team got his team an award for something we'd worked on jointly. No mention of my teams contribution and I felt I'd let them down terribly. I try to be more mindful of it now but it doesn't come naturally.

I just wrote a post about how I don't talk myself down, then deleted it because it sounded arrogant!

But when I moved jobs a few years ago I decided that I just wouldn't let other people hear my internal soundtrack - instead I would present myself assertively, take credit when due, promote my team generously, never talk about my looks / weight and just generally be more of a man around the workplace. It worked too. Promoted twice and given responsibility for turning round a team that was seen as failing. They weren't, btw - they just talked themselves (and everyone else) down all the time. Although interestingly there was a man on the team who was so not an alpha (I was in financial services) and he particularly struggled with his own bad PR.

Its a serious point and I don't want to dumb it down but would say that 'fake it till you make it' has had a huge impact on my career.

Yes, I see and do this heifer

I had an appraisal this year with my (male) boss. We both prepared in advance. He gave his view of my performance and I had to state my case for my bonus.

His list was stronger than mine! He said he felt I lacked confidence in my achievements. I am confident doing my job, I'm qualified, I don't find it hard to give my opinion in meetings or recommendations in a report etc. I do find it hard to tell people when I have done well. I say things like "yes, but that's my job isn't it? I haven't done anything special". Being singled out for praise kills me and I feel compelled to play it down.

I am getting better at not doing - more so in emails. Today a member of my team sent me a report which was, frankly, rubbish and asked me if it was ok to send. I made changes all the way through to grammar, spelling, colloquialisms and then in my reply I put something like "feel free to ignore my recommendations if you think they're not suitable". I deleted it again because actually, they were totally appropriate. I am her boss so it reflects on me either way and I don't want poorly written reports sent out from my team.

I actually think that it's working with men that's made me evaluate how I word things though. My peers are all men and they would never have said "heres some feedback, ignore it if you think its a bit shit". I remind myself of that every day in the office.

Really?

I have an opinion and am not afraid to use it

Hard for me to say, I admit. I worked in advertising-type environments, where communication was THE key skill and my overbearing boss was, at least, recognised as a bully with a screw loose.

I've been looking back over various smaller encounters with twatty workmen, etc, and realise that in fact I do simply ignore what they've said and treat them like hearing-impaired children. So I guess that's what you're saying!

I don't give a shit what those workmen think of me, though, it's more difficult if you've got to spend all day, every day, with the sexist bastards.

garlic, in ideal world it indeed would go like that:
Heidi: In view of what you said, Ben, my view works because ..
Ben: Hmm indeed good point Heidi, so you would suggest that...?

in real life it goes like that
Heidi: In view of what you said, Ben, my view works because ..
Ben talking loudly over Heidi: ...and if I elaborate my point then I blah blah blah
heidi: um..sorry..excuse me..still talking..hello? :o

At least this is what used to happen to me. Especially if I did the "I think that possibly maybe.." introduction as well. Now, when I behave like men, people say I'm too bossy. Just because I have an opinion and am not afraid to use it.

No, I don't think you've got the wrong end of the stick, I think it's just to do with different experiences. I'm in quite an old-fashioned, sexist context, so it is probably very different from a workplace where men are being sent on courses to become more empathetic. IME, women seem to get the thin end of the wedge, because it's very hard to find an appropriately assertive-but-not-aggressive way to express things. I'm glad that's not the case everywhere though.

The whole point is that women and men shouldn't have to dress up the same content differently in order to get the same response - if they do, that's a bit poor. If, as is my experience, there are substantially fewer ways for women to dress up the same content and get any sort of positive response at all, that is where you start worrying.

Maybe this is one of the many areas where I could do with a bit of education, LRD ...

If, in that meeting, you go "In view of what you said, Ben, and taking Joe's point on board, my view works because ..."

It's only a more empathetic way of saying the same thing. Or am I wrong?
I thought they were sending men on courses to learn how to do that. Have I got the wrong end of the stick?

I agree about competitive body-hating.

About workplace stuff though, I don't think assertiveness training is the point. In my experience, men and women do not get the same reactions based on the same actions. What people recognize as 'assertive' behaviour depends on the gender of the person doing it - and IMO men are made to jump through far fewer hoops to achieve a good 'assertive' manner. Just as Heidi says.

I think part of the issue is that society still expects women to be better communicators than men, and more empathetic. So a man who says 'here's my view, and I'm right, and Joe's wrong' is accepted. But a woman is expected to defer to the emotional needs of people around her and to communicate that deference so everyone feels nice.