Catherine Hakim - Honey Money: The Power of Erotic Capital

NormanTebbit

Men are as different from each other as they are from women.

Just notice this.
That's really, really not true.

XY vs XX as a start?

Nice thought. Not sure you expressed it clearly.

The Zoe Williams article in The Guardian made me laugh, then cringe about the book itself. Not sure I want to read it though as I think it would just get me annoyed.

X posted too, but yes, exactly.

I think I've discovered the source of my discomfort with this term.
I love the feminist board.

Yes, I think my gut reaction of cringeing to the term, is that when people use the term strong woman, it's often being used to describe a woman who has been totally shat upon by men/ society/ her circumstances, but hasn't actually died of all the abuse.

I think that's my discomfort with it. A strong man, by contrast, is someone who is either a bodybuilder as you say, or one who stands up for the right thing, like Atticus Finch or Henry Fonda in Twelve Angry Men.

x-posted, HB. Yeah - it's like a nice way of saying "Your life is shit but you're not dead yet (and well done for the lipstick)".

Ah! Got it - I think.

You can have strong opinions and make a strong argument. You can take a strong stand for/against something. You can have a strong immune system, strong muscles, strong arms/legs/hands/ankles/heart/lungs.You can even have strong features, a strong intellect and a strong stomach. But having these doesn't make you a "strong person", because there's no such thing in English.

When you hear of a strong man, you assume he's got unusual physical strength, not that he possesses some mysterious quality of survival. So a strong woman should be a bodybuilder or similar, shouldn't she?

In my mind, I think I see "a strong woman" as one who is borderline alcoholic, gets dumped a lot, but puts lipstick on and a smile to face the world and shuts up about what's bothering her so that she doesn't frighten the horses.

Or along those lines. Because that's the sort of context I've always heard it used in and it makes me cringe.

Good for you, Norma :) I totally recommend assertiveness training! It's not just for wimps ...

"Strong" is a bit of a bollocks term, isn't it, unless you're talking about physical load-bearing capacity. I'm "strong for a woman", as old-fashioned removal men like to say, because I can shift a sofa. But a strong person? Wtf is that???

Sorry - didn't mean to turn the subject away from OP

Should start a new thread.

I don't discount the views of others, talk over them or interupt them (well occasionally the last one when they have discounted my views or failed to listen ) I just stick up for myself.

I am actually not very good at real confrontation (used to run away from) , but getting better

the strong woman thing makes me think of slebs on Who Do You Think You Are finding out about their great-great grandmother who worked 14 hours a day in the mill and brought up 12 children single handed (the other 11 having died of fever) and going 'She must have been an incredibly strong woman. Of course I'm amazingly strong too, I expect it's where I get it from.'

Interesting! I remember the first time I was called aggressive in a work environment - I was a sales director and my strategy, which was aggressive, was being praised. I really, really had to stop myself bridling at the adjective

I hate the phrase "strong woman".

I don't know why, I just do.

women saying exactly the same thing as a man, in exactly the same way, are perceived as mean bitches while men are perceived as assertive leaders Yes, I have seen those studies and observed the phenomenon in real life. Not so much in the past 15 years or so, though. The Daily Mail doesn't necessarily reflect real life

I want to point out that aggressive isn't the same as overbearing. Aggression has its place (and is more criticised in women than in men) but overbearing/dominating/bullying behaviour is equally unwelcome from either sex. Many men have poor assertive skills, resorting to domination instead.

I definitely believe the best response to criticism is to find out whether they have a point! I somewhat believe that women who consider themselves 'strong' often are overbearing instead of being properly strong - that was true of me at the time I was criticised. (Still is sometimes, but I'm better than I was!!)

It's one of those things that in theory could apply equally to either sex but I'd be very surprised if it actually was in practice.

Whether people are perceived as assertive or aggressive, is absolutely a gender issue. There's been loads of research that shows that women saying exactly the same thing as a man, in exactly the same way, are perceived as mean bitches while men are perceived as assertive leaders.

But the other stuff you mentioned isn't a gender issue, I agree.

Yes but generally when women are called overbearing, they don't do any of that stuff GN.

Women get called overbearing when they simply state their case unapologetically and don't immediately back down and change their mind when told they're wrong.

SGM and Norma - I addressed the problem of my being overbearing by getting assertiveness training. Overbearing means discounting the views of others, failing to listen, talking over other people, interrupting too much and all the physical equivalents of same, like pushing past people and turning your back.

It's a communication problem, not a gender issue.

Interesting & relevant Takver.

Apologies if I've missed it, but has anyone pointed out on the thread yet that Catherine Hakim specialises in writing supposedly academic anti-feminist crap and has done since about the year dot.

(Have to say that until DH read it and told me that ZW ripped the piss out of her I didn't even read that guardian article as I knew it would annoy me too much.)

I find it quite interesting that the author herself doesn't seem to have what it takes - whatever that is! - to make the book succeed. The stories going around about her behaviour make the subject of the book even more mindboggling. We all accept that to get people to buy something, you have to at least pretend to like them - not so, apparently!
It's all very strange.

Oh, heck, didn't mean anything really horrid! Sorry you were upset/pissed off.

Great - a as soon as I step into the feminist subject for the first time.

sigh

.

... unless you are overbearing, Norma?
One of my own flaws, I hasten to add!
I worked on it. Not always successfully.

I do worry that the meeja and govt seem to be pushing some rather 1950s-style messages about women atm. Could it be related, as it was then, to freeing up more jobs for the menz?

Interesting. Marking place...

I work in a job where my appearance is important - but that more means being smart rather than anything sexual. Simpering would probably be detrimental tbh. I am respected for my knowledge and skills rather than erotic capital, but I probably do use erotic capital in a jokey way (to get overworked Config Manager to prioritise my work over other peoples).

My problem apparently is that people find me overbearing (according to my appraisal), which I read as don't like assertive woman who won't be patronised /shouted down by others