Do you have a feminist perspective on smacking children?

Oh yes, totally agree with that too SGB.

No chance whatsoever of that with DD, she's a firm believer in self defence and pre-emptive fisticuffs action but that's more of an issue with DS who is one of those gentle, law-abiding, rule-obeying males the patriarchy shits upon.

It's difficult to not send mixed messages to children isn't it? I have said to the kids that obviously hitting other kids is wrong, but sometimes when you are faced with people who aren't going to behave correctly and no-one else is going to force them to face correctly, then you have to use tactics which are wrong to stop them persecuting you. They're now old enough to understand that, but when they were younger, it was a much more difficult balance and I struggled with the "mixed messages" problem. It's easier to be more nuanced the older they get and the better they can enter into discussion.

HerB, I can see your point but be wary of making them too saintly and passive to stand up for themselves. Sometimes you need to cause another person physical pain to get them to back off, because otherwise they are going to cause you some.

I'm interested in this idea of legitimate authority. I have legitimate authority over my children, but I still don't think I should smack them - there are no limits to my authority at their current age, but there are limits to what I'm entitled to do in the name of that authority and my personal limit stops at screaming like a banshee at them. I stop short of inflicting physical pain.

Which doesn't mean that I've never smacked them - the last time was years ago - but if I do, I apologise for smacking them because it's wrong and I shouldn't. That goes for screaming like a banshee as well come to think of it, I acknowledge that that's a shit way of dealing with stuff as well, but I explain that we all make mistakes and do things that are wrong sometimes and at the moment they accept that (am sure that will change as they hit teenagerdom).

My notion is that at least if they know that it's wrong to do certain things - like smack, swear, call people names, bully them, wind them up etc., then although they might do them sometimes (because we all make mistakes and do things we shouldn't) they won't accept them as normal, harmless occupations which are understandable, justifiable, or just "a bit of a laugh". There are too many depressing threads on here where someone says that they're upset about something and piles of idiots tell her that it doesn't matter" that she's upset, that her feelings aren't valid and that her DH/ BF/ Mum/ whichever borderline abusive git is gaslighting or abusing her, is just having a joke or did it by accident. If it hasn't been made clear to you as a child that certain behaviours are outright wrong*, then when you are unfortunate enough to come across them in adult life, it's easier for people to force you to accept them by blurring your sense of what's what. I'm hoping that by making it clear that my or anybody else's authority doesn't extend to having the right to cause physical pain, I'll inoculate them against the temptation to do it themselves or accept it being done to them when they're older. Which isn't necessarily a feminist angle, but it does fit in seamlessly with feminism.

I have smacked my children when they were very small, and consider myself a feminist. This is because I don't believe that very little people have great reasoning powers, and, very occasionally, no amount of reasoning/being put outside the room etc has worked and I've smacked them, usually in response to being smacked/hit unexpectedly myself e.g. in the face when they've thrown something or being extremely and annoyingly defiant. I don't use any of the consequences methods of discipline on my partner or work collegues either, I don't think the relationship between a child and parent has to mirror that of others in your lives.

I don't 'believe' in smacking as a discipline method, rather I think of it as something that has happened when they were small, say once every few months. However, like SGB, I don't think as children get older and can understand consequences and reasoning that smacking is appropriate and so I make sure I don't smack them (mine are 5 and 7). I wouldn't be against a change in the law to prevent smacking as I don't see it it as a desirable thing, however, I think it's interesting that there seems to be (at least for most of my friends) an instinct to smack, and I really don't know people who have either never every smacked their child, or felt like doing it even once. Only on MN.

I think people who think they are great parents because they don't smack may be mistaken; they may, they may not be great, I don't see a twice yearly smack as having anything to do with it when I look round my contemporaries.

I am more of the opinion that the occasional light slap when a toddler or preschooler is being maddening teaches them the lesson that while it's great fun to wind people up, there is always the risk that you will get a slap if you don't pack it in when told to.

i don't relate the two. i don't smack because i tried it twice with DD (who threw horrendous temper tantrums), first time worked - shocked her and left her a bit subdued, second time she looked at me with total disdain and said "didn't even hurt". i was soooooo tempted to slap her across the face to see if that hurt that I walked away and have never been tempted to try it again with her or DS.

IMO parents who smack generally don't have authority over their children, and smacking doesn't give them the authority either. While parents who are able to smack their children in a calm manner as part of an overall authoritative stance IMO don't NEED to smack so why do it??

I do have a friend who was smacked regularly by her dad as a punishment handed out by her mum - a "wait till your father gets home" type routine. I think that might be a feminist issue?

I suppose my position on smacking came about from feminism though I didn't necessarily consider it consciously. I've never really been comfortable with the idea but once I'd become a victim of DV I found that I had trouble separating smacking from DV since both involve using physical force or the threat of it to maintain control. That's massively over-simplistic of course, but from a personal POV it just doesn't sit right with me.

OTOH, I think inadequate parenting and some non-physical forms of punishment can do far more harm than smacking. Smacking, when carried out properly (i.e. without anger and in a controlled fashion) is considered by many to be very effective. I think much of the trouble comes from the fact that many parents who smack do so as a last resort when they finally lose their temper with their child. Then it becomes about anger and retribution rather than a legitimate means of controlling a child's behaviour. I think the damage this sort of smacking creates is in part the reason why smacking is so out of favour now, but I don't think it's wise to assume that all smacking is like that.

I definitely feel that the older a child becomes the more inappropriate smacking becomes. Similar to SGB I think that any child over a certain age (assuming no behavioural issues/learning difficulties, etc) should be capable of being reasoned with and I firmly believe that it's a mistake to not do this and rely on force instead.

You could tie yourself up in knots really by over-thinking this though. I mean as feminists we wouldn't put up with men trying to control our physical movement if we didn't conform to their behavioural standards, but that's exactly what us non-smackers like myself do when we use the naughty step...

I love the idea of 'bodily integrity' put forward by HerBex, which is a beautifully articulate way of putting it and one I shall be stealing for future use.

I don't have children yet but don't intend to use physical pain as punishment or deterrent or training. The 'body integrity' and respect issue is key, I think, for me. I think being feminist doesn't cause or change these views, but makes it easier to identify with the idea of vulnerability.

Re authority though - we do all give our children very clear, firm instructions with no explanation or negotiation (well the vast majority of parents do) so obviously the relationship we have with them is different. We are in charge and have to assert this somehow. It's different to DV because the control element is already there, it's essential. The ideal I guess is for children to respect instructions from parents without fear of reprisals, especially painful ones.

I'm rambling a bit and feel somewhat unqualified not having kids, but this interests me.

My thoughts are the same as SGB on this one.

No

I do consider myself as having legitimate authority over DS, he's only 6 and I do control what he eats, when he goes to bed, where he goes etc in a way that I wouldn't feel I had the authority to do with another adult. That doesn't mean I beat him regularly (and in fact I no longer smack him, 6 is old enough to use discussion and withdrawal of privileges etc as a disciplinary method). As to smacking other adults, I don't do that very often either, but (for instance) would slap someone who was touching me and wouldn't stop, or who was really invading my personal space in order to annoy me.

Yes actually, it's far more reasonable to go around hitting adults.

But most of them are bigger and stronger than me, so I won't be doing that experiment any time soon.

And also, they are so conventional in their outlook. They probably wouldn't want to get with the programme - they'd complain to HR or the police, damn them.

Oh God mine too HerBex! Not to mention those knobs on the bus with the too loud tinny ipods

ROFL at giving recalcitrant adults occasional smacks.

Imagine the workplace if that was the generally held view of it.

It would be very noisy in my office. Slapping noises everywhere.

I think the smacking issue is to do with legitimate authority. Good parents who smack do so because they believe they have the authority/higher up the hierarchy. Peers don't have hierarchy as such, and feminists in particular would not be enamoured with the concept of hierarchy, to put it mildly.
I haven't smacked (but then DC are very young still) but I don't particularly condemn it in limited circs and do believe I have authority over my children. So it hasn't come up for me yet in a real life non-pontification situation.

Obviously I am talking about a small tap on the hand or leg in limited circs, not a hard slap or anything worse. That disclaimer always need to be put in on threads of this sort.

I'm a feminist, but my not-smacking policy (if I had children, which I don't. I don't go around smacking random children either though) comes from my adjacent anti-violence conviction, rather than from a feminist theme.

hello sgb!

brilliant xpost

what is it you're asking LRFD?

do you want to smack? do you need others to tell you what they do?

I think you know

Well I am a feminist and I don't have a huge problem with the occasional smack for a naughty kid. But then I don't have a huge problem with smacking an adult who is misbehaving deliberately and persistently either.