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Original poster

"Being happy is not a feminist issue"

216 replies

HerBeX · 25/08/2011 09:46

This caught my eye on another thread, but I didn't want to de-rail and I thought it was interesting in the context of marriages, relationships etc.

My immediate response was "isn't it"?

On one level, of course it isn't, it's an overall human issue (but that's true of lots of feminist issues too).

But then I thought, well, there's this whole hetero-normative monogamy propaganda out there, women are constantly being told that the way to gain happiness is to bag a man and live with him until one of you dies and yet nearly half of all marriages now end in divorce, usually instigated by women, because clearly that hasn't made them happy - or maybe it made them happy for a while but no longer does?

Mumsnet is full of threads with unhappy women asking why they are unhappy and so far as I can see, it's generally bcause their DP's have an enormous sense of entitlement which neither partner has analysed or realised is there and so therefore can never be effectively addressed. And because men and women appear to expect very different things from marriage and partnership. And surely feminism arose from the big enlightenment question of how can people be happy. Feminism arose because lots of women realised that many of the causes of women's unhappiness, were structural rather than just individual.

All of which are feminist issues and possibly interesting enough to kick a few thoughts around?

OP posts:
Original poster
HerBeX · 25/08/2011 11:22

Yes it's odd that so many people think that expecting to be happy = expecting life to be perfect.

Happiness isn't perfection, is it?

OP posts:
Original poster
HerBeX · 25/08/2011 11:20

YY to dreaming btw - that thing of having a niggling unhappiness but that not being a good enough reason to leave.

The right to the pursuit of happiness is written into the American constitution. But what they really meant, was men's right to pursue happiness. The idea that women should have tht right, is such a novel one, that it frightens the horses when it's raised.

I remember wishing my xp would hit me or fuck a blonde or something, just so that I had a "good" excuse to dump him. Being permanently unhappy just didn't seem a good enough reason to change my life.

Is tht true of men? Do they expect to be happy and to have the right to pursue happiness?

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motherinferior · 25/08/2011 11:20

And those women who do love caring for others might also enjoy pursuing that outside the domestic sphere.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 25/08/2011 11:19

'Happy' is even a modern word, I think. I think back in the day, people had ways to say they were content, or healthy, or amused, or cheerful - but you don't seem to get a lot of references to just being plain happy. I suspect that's natural in a world where it's so hard to live and the idea of being happy - contentment with no reason for it - was almost morally suspect.

I like that we can get away from that idea. Saying 'you shouldn't expect life to be perfect' strikes me as mean-spirited, really. Sure, be aware of the bad stuff but don't let it get in the way of living your life.

I think the idea that happy people are selfish is a red herring. There's no intrinsic connection - IME happy women have energy to support other people, so do happy men. The way some people talk, it's as if there's a finite amount of happiness around and god forbid women use it up! Hmm

dreamingbohemian · 25/08/2011 11:17

Qwepoi, well, that's great for your grandmother. I think it's pretty patronising to tell a woman who wants to go on holiday that she'd actually be happier staying home and making her children happy. It's exactly that kind of attitude that keeps women doing what everyone else wants or needs and putting aside things that they want to do for themselves.

The idea that happiness is a modern idea is ridiculous and yet another tactic to socialise people into doing what society demands first and foremost. We wouldn't have 5000 years of recorded art, music, philosophy, sports, literature, religion for that matter, if all humans cared about was survival and work and good deeds.

What is different today is that happiness has become a consumer product and marketed to different audiences. If people buy into that, well, they'll probably not find what they think they're looking for, but that's different from the basic human sense of wanting to be happy.

ChickensHaveNoEyebrows · 25/08/2011 11:14

That's true. I sometimes feel guilty ffs for doing something that is solely for me. I get over it and do it anyway, granted, but that little niggly guilt is still there however fleeting.

motherinferior · 25/08/2011 11:14

But we should, surely, aim to improve the imperfections? Rather than saying 'that is the way of the world, resign yourself to it?' Women have votes, equal pay, maternity leave, because we said we weren't putting up with a situation that forbade us those things.

qwepoi · 25/08/2011 11:14

Well, I'm grateful to my mother for looking after us as best she could rather than just trying to 'be happy' instead of cooking great food for us.

edd1337 · 25/08/2011 11:12

Then you shouldn't expect life to be perfect

motherinferior · 25/08/2011 11:12

'I think happiness is a feminist issue because so many women put their own happiness below that of their partners, children, families, work colleagues, etc. So many women are not assertive enough to put their own needs first, the needs that would lead to more happiness for them. And when women do try to put their own needs first, they are often accused of being selfish and guilted into not doing whatever they want to do.'

I agree.

Bonsoir · 25/08/2011 11:11

MI - not the hoover. That is not my point. But I think you are clever enough to work that one out...

ChickensHaveNoEyebrows · 25/08/2011 11:11

I, er, don't get much pleasure at all from caring for others. But I can see that there is a societal expectation which is satisfied with me when I do. It just doesn't happen much.

MitchiestInge · 25/08/2011 11:11

depression and gender

Original poster
HerBeX · 25/08/2011 11:10

Well the pursuit of happiness is an enlightenment idea isn't it.

The American constitution, wiht its right to pursue happiness, was unique (I'm not sure if it still is, is there any other nation where the right to pursue happiness is written into the constitution?)

It is a very modern idea. I don't think it's a bad one though.

And the problem with the idea of getting happiness through serving others, is that that version of happiness is the traditional one offered to women. But it isn't the one that's sold to men. And it isn't making women happy AFAICS.

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qwepoi · 25/08/2011 11:10

chickens - yes that is exactly my point - but better expressed! We need to accept that life isn't perfect.

motherinferior · 25/08/2011 11:10

I really don't think that women long to retain a hold on the hoover.

ChickensHaveNoEyebrows · 25/08/2011 11:09

To an extent HerBeX. But some of us just have wonky ovaries that hate us.

motherinferior · 25/08/2011 11:09

Women are told far too much that our reward is in caring for others! Why is it?

My grandmother, incidentally, committed suicide with PND.

Bonsoir · 25/08/2011 11:09

Fine, MI, but it's not the case for a lot of women who grew up being told that they were entitled to have it all, and, crucially, do want it all. Lucky souls who don't care about either house/home/childcare or a career, because it is combining the two satisfactorily that causes a massive amount of women's exhaustion (--> depression).

motherinferior · 25/08/2011 11:08

And I'm a journalist who works in women's mags and is a lifelong feminist, btw.

Original poster
HerBeX · 25/08/2011 11:08

Yes dream and so often, the response to women being unhappy, is "work on your relationship then"

Women spend so much time working on their relationships - far more than men by hte looks of it - and still they're unhappy.

And then they are told (by idiots) that if they don't work on their relationships, shock, horror they might end up - aaaaaaaaaaargh - single! Oh the horror!

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qwepoi · 25/08/2011 11:08

dreaming - but perhaps if women stopped worrying about trying to be happy by eg going on hols without children and tried to make their children's lives as happy as poss they would be happier. Finding reward in caring for others? My Grandmother would never have stopped to consider if she was 'happy' she just looked after people and found great satisfaction from doing so.

motherinferior · 25/08/2011 11:06

God, I love jettisoning all that tedious 'hold on house and home' stuff. What's not to want to relinquish? Ditto childcare. I love my children, but I much prefer an equitable distribution of childcare as much as domestic work (well, ideally I'd do no domestic work but you have to have a Y chromosome to get away with that one).

MitchiestInge · 25/08/2011 11:05

Bennifer?

ChickensHaveNoEyebrows · 25/08/2011 11:05

Interesting point, qwepoi. So the idea is that because we are so focused on happiness, we're actually less happy? And if I had my way all of those so called 'women's magazines' would be consigned to a special corner of hell. I have never flicked through one without wanting to kill myself.