"Being happy is not a feminist issue"

Poor children my arse. They're 15 years old! It's hardly going to scar them for life if their mum goes away for a few days, good lord.

(sorry, not trying to do a thread about a thread)

HerBeX the American constitution bit is interesting actually (and I'm American so maybe that explains a lot! )

I do think the pursuit of happiness is pretty hard wired into the American psyche, but not necessarily in a decadent, frivolous way, more in a 'no one is going to tell me what to do, this isn't Communist Russia' kind of way.

With men accounting for 75% of the suicides in the UK and recent research finding that men are far less likely to ask for support for depression it is far from clear cut that women are less happy than men.

When it comes to reliable divorce statistics the figures quoted relate to the numbers of women initiating divorce proceedings rather than the numbers of women initiating divorce. It isn't possible to compare "apples with pears" - an unhappy husband might initiate the divorce by leaving the marriage but the wife initiates the proceedings by petitioning for divorce.

Sardine - absolutely agree with you ideas on 'contentment'.

I do think that modern eduction / society / media has conditioned lots of women out of feeling that they can gain contentment from family life when in previous generations thay could have.

(Oh, and happy is a modern word, I just checked. It's only used to mean 'lucky' before c. 1520. But this, I am sure no-one else cares about! )

I think that modern life has an awful lot of pressures that did not exist for more recent previous generations.

Also that society has loosened up so people are more able to talk about their unhappiness, things that have happened to them.

I agree that the media (the constant advertising and exhortation to buy more stuff) contributes significantly to lowering contentment.

I love holidays in places where there are no shops or media.

Truck I agree male unhappiness is a problem in that the patriarchal "be a man and suck it up" attitude has really hurt a lot of men. Despite the shocking rise in male suicide and men being diagnosed with MH issues, I try to see this as an encouraging sign that men's MH is now being taken seriously.

That aside, I firmly believe that the reason that fewer women commit suicide is that they have too many people relying on them. I've encountered several women who have told me that the only reason they haven't killed themselves is "because of the kids." Men don't have this burden of responsibility in the same numbers as women.

Also, in my own life I've had a lot of ups and down - lost nearly all my relatives (including both parents) within a few years, seen my beloved sister emigrate, changed career, got divorced (XP1) and yet despite all this, the only time I would say I've been unhappy is when I was with XP2 (the abusive one). Even though these other events were hard, my underlying core was still happy because my life and my perception of myself were generally in a good place. Only my XP2's treatment of me ever affected those.

Ok, I think this is interesting, skip over if it's boring for you:

Wiki reckons 'happy' used to mean something else: 'Philosophers and religious thinkers often define happiness in terms of living a good life, or flourishing, rather than simply as an emotion. Happiness in this older sense was used to translate the Greek Eudaimonia, and is still used in virtue ethics.'

I wonder if the fact that the word used to have a moral implication and doesn't any more is why people get uptight? As in, back in the day, being happy would imply having a social conscience and now people think of it more as a selfish emotional thing? I think actually being happy still is a positive thing for society - but our society doesn't really like to acknowledge that making women happy is socially worthwhile.

Mitch

Just making the point that, as far as I'm aware, the fact that marriage makes women less happy and that women are less happy than men seems to be unfounded myths

I do think that a lot of people probably are happy (or content) but then the media / society makes them question if they are as happy as they should be? And then they start to feel disatisfied.

When I think of happiness in the context of these types of conversations I think for me anyway it is more like contentment that is being sought.

Happiness is usually quite transient - something "makes" you happy, and then it stops and the feeling passes. Contentment is a much more level, ongoing state. True contentment is something that I would love. That feeling of being at peace with everything, everything is going well, ticking along nicely, no big dramas, that sort of thing.

And on the idea that women get satisfaction from caring for others - that's just nonsense surely? Some women do, some don't. Some men do, some don't. When it was all women were allowed to do, many of them drugged themselves to cope, and many still do (although now it's more usually dished out by the doctor).

qwepoi that's because we have this idea that working person = person who has no responsability at home.
It's actually true for men and women. Both should be prepared to look after a house. And imo, that's something that should be leanrt at home not in shool (To start up with, you can make it 'practical' at home).
So of course if you idea of being feminist is too behave like a men, with all the misconcieved ideas about the role of a men in a household, then you are setting yourself up for big difficulties.

Despite your musings, the porn culture will never die

I haven't followed the holiday issue, but, personally, I think it does both mothers and children good to spend holidays apart quite often!

Ive worked in mental health on and off for 10 years, and men are seeking more help now than ever before.

They'd tough it out before (hence the higher suicide rates for men)

Goverment statistics.

'There are more suicides in males than females. In 2009 there were 4,304 male suicides (17.5 per 100,000 population) and 1,371 female suicides (5.2 per 100,000)'

So i don't think men are any happier

I believe that a good marraige is best for men, women and children. But there is a big difference between my idea of a good marraige - equality throughout, respect, love, generosity etc, and the way many people see a good marraige. I think as far as marraige goes, that far too many women set their sights far too low. Women marry men who are a waste of space and then wonder why they are unhappy and why their husband is such a tosser. There are countless threads on here about husbands who refuse to do anything domestic or take any responsibility for their children. And so many women who say 'Well, they are men, you just have to put up with it'.

To my mind, if more women had the balls to either be single (possibly forever) or only allow a decent man into their lives then the sexist dinosaurs would die out after a couple of generations. Of course this puts the whole thing squarely in the lap of women and sort of lets men off the hook again. But the way feminism is going and with the rise and rise of porn culture, I can't see any other way of changing things.

Thanks mother. I was just trying to remember when I'd heard it used instead of the other words I mentioned ... off to look it up now!

'I think the idea that happy people are selfish is a red herring. There's no intrinsic connection - IME happy women have energy to support other people, so do happy men. The way some people talk, it's as if there's a finite amount of happiness around and god forbid women use it up!'

Absolutely!

I mean, look, I've been through tough times in my life, I know life isn't perfect, but I think going through life not expecting or trying to be happy is just kind of pointless. We only have one life and god knows how long it will last, I don't see any virtue in shuffling through making the best of things and that's it. If I thought that way I would honestly not be alive right now.

qwepoi I think it's a question of balance (and that is actually tue for men).
If you have dcs and carry on selfishly to 'just' try and find happiness for yourself then it is an issue and I would agree.
but if, on the other side, you always put yur own happiness on the side for the sake of the dcs (or anyonelese for that matter incl husband, parents etc...) then it is an issue too.
The reality is that, when one is happy, then one is better at looking after their dcs (take for example the effect of having a depressed parent on children) so it shouldn't be incompatible.

Back to the op, when I reflect back on my school days, an academic girls school, all very feminist. It was 100% about getting a job, I never remember the idea that any of us would one day be mothers being raised. Home ec was the reserve of a few who weren't 'clever' enough to do something 'better'. I got good results, job etc but was totally unprepared for where I find myslef now.

And dreaming - it may be patronisng to tell a women that she shouldn't go on hols without her children, but I think it's sad that anyone should have to tell her at all. Poor children.

Why shouldn't men be happy and have the right to persue happiness?

No, it isn't a modern word.