"Being happy is not a feminist issue"

Agree with spoons that children's achievements are their own rather than mine

STIDW yes I'm sure that is true.

I was just concerned at the suicide rates being used to show that men are more unhappy than women, when those rates are a very small (but shocking) part of the picture.

Lots of people are very unhappy but not committing suicide. Millions of them, in fact.

STIDW ? I don't think it's a competition. When you consider the numbers of people on ADs that's a significant proportion of the population. What more evidence do we need to show that society isn't working that well for huge amounts of people?

Now it's probable that women's reasons for depression are completely different to men's. Both are equally valid. But since we're discussing the causes of female depression here, we're concentrating on factors we think are responsible. that doesn't mean we're saying male depression doesn't matter, it's just not what we're discussing on this feminist thread.

Byron was a patronizing git, wasn't he?!

takver - that makes a lot of sense, yes!

dreaming - well, I just like words I guess! It just fascinates me that there isn't really a good word for the same concept until modern English kicks in - I find that quite telling. All the other words I can think of are sort of more about how someone seems to others, than how they feel inside.

I think in terms of actually being happy, the dreaded 'women are so good at multitasking' has a lot to answer for. If you do a reasonably finite job, or a job where you can clock off, you have the time and space to relax a bit. Women in 'traditional' roles don't have this - nor do farmers, who have a very high suicide rate.

I don't think raising children is full of undefined goals, however. Children, by their vary nature, achieve massively in quick succession. If you teach your children things (swimming, diving, cycling, reading, writing, singing...) you get lots of tangible results pretty fast!

SardineQueen wrote;

The suicide rates are interesting but possibly a bit of an emotive red herring? Out of a population the size of the UK, the suicide rates are quite small. Compared to say the number of people on ADs. this says 36 million prescriptions for ADs written in 2008 - now many of those will be repeat prescriptions but it still points to millions of people in the UK taking them. And that's just looking at people who are being treated - who aren't self-medicating - or on treatments other than anti-depressants.

Recent mental health research in the UK indicates that men and tend to deal with depression by getting angry or self medicating with drugs and alcohol rather than seeking medical help and prescribed medication.

Come to that, I was reading Ann Oakley's book 'Housewife' again the other day, and it struck me how much of it still stands, despite the fact that it was written maybe 40 years ago, and on the surface women's position is quite different.

That's an interesting thought, Spoons. As you say, 'feminine' goals are both undefined, and often un-completeable (how ever well you do the housework, it still needs doing tomorrow).

Even if you have a 'wider task' that is in practice impossible (bring down world capitalism), at least when you'd done it, you wouldn't have children spilling cornflakes all over it.

For me, hormones do play the largest part in my happiness, I had horrendous PMT for years in my 30's , I literally had one good week a month and my cycle was so short that I was bleeding for one week in three , I don't know how DH put up with me in all honesty, I was must have been pretty vile to live with. I improved immensely when I had my coil removed and lost weight, a stone dropped off me (without effort) when it came out.
Now, I'm contending with the menopause, my periods are getting further apart and my symptoms are like clockwork, day one of my period and I feel like a crazy woman, emotionally out of control, I came home from work in tears on Monday because I'd switched a plug off and turned off everyone's computer in the office, it's a very frightening feeling indeed, complete with palpitations and uncontrollable sweating/hot flushes .
My life has never been better, strong and happy marriage, DD is off having a fantastic life at Uni, we are financially secure and DH is happier in his job than he's been in 15 years, we've had a fabulous couple of years, so hormones are the only factor messing with my head.

I do agree that women are conditioned to be nice and put others happiness first, thankfully it's never been something I've felt pressure to do, a bit of selfishness is good for women I think.

I think that men are under a different but just as insidious pressure though, the pressure to succeed in their careers and to find fulfillment/happiness through their work rather than their family can be immense.

"Feminism arose because lots of women realised that many of the causes of women's unhappiness, were structural rather than just individual."

Actually, I think that sentence from your OP really sums the whole thing up. Women aren't 'unhappy' - they're systematically fucked over . . .

LRD (and others), I believe that it is the case that in general, studies find that people who have some 'wider purpose' in their life, whether that be active political commitment, religion, or a career that they consider to be important to the wider world are on average more content with their life.

I think this has to be a feminist issue, because so often women are effectively excluded from these fulfilling activities by their household commitments. So even if they have a job, it is often the woman who gives up the 'career' to take on a part time role that will combine with family care.

I guess the propaganda has always been that women should feel fulfilled by carrying out this caring role, but of course in practice for most women it just doesn't work like that.

LRD I'm interested!

Just to be clear, when I said happiness was not a modern concept, I wasn't strictly talking about the word happiness. I just think the fact that so many non-essential things have existed throughout human history (like art, music, philosophy) indicates an innate human desire to get more from life than just survival and work -- a desire to be uplifted in some way, I guess.

Agree with everything Callisto said. I know far too many women who put up with shit husbands because 'that's what men are like'. Tis bollocks, or course. It's what arseholes are like. So maybe we need to work on raising womens expectations of what a good partner is. Some of my friends expect so bloody little from their husbands. If the man wipes a kitchen counter he is a god etc.

The suicide rates are interesting but possibly a bit of an emotive red herring? Out of a population the size of the UK, the suicide rates are quite small. Compared to say the number of people on ADs. this says 36 million prescriptions for ADs written in 2008 - now many of those will be repeat prescriptions but it still points to millions of people in the UK taking them. And that's just looking at people who are being treated - who aren't self-medicating - or on treatments other than anti-depressants.

Interesting study on Happiness, Housework and Gender Inequality

I like the reference to a "stalled gender revolution" in the West.

Surely the man and woman should know each other for a while first before getting married. Less mistakes to be made

No, I think we are now able to admit if 'family life' - as in, dedicating yourself entirely to house and home - does not make us content.

I actually have a rather nice family life. I just don't want that to be the only thing on offer to me and to other women.

'Human beings are incredibly good at wringing out happiness where they can.'

That's a very good point.

I think men and suicide is a good point too - it's very sad.

I have heard it theorized that women are less likely to commit suicide because they feel they don't have the right to take their own lives ('[what about teh children?'), but I don't know how valid that is.