"Being happy is not a feminist issue"

vezzie - there is a liberal wing - with which I more self-identify than am actually a member of iyswim. It's not -unfortunately - the most vocal part of the church, but it does exist.

this is an interesting blog - not least for the 'Inquiries on Feminist Issues' section.

On the subject of religion - yes, it has been shown that religious people are less inclined to depression. If you are intent on interrogating your monotheistic religion of choice in any detail you may, as a feminist, find it hostile to you and this is another way in which a source of happiness becomes unavailable.

Treats - the liberal wing of the catholic church? Does it actually exist, or do you mean a notional "wing" in which those brought up catholic and don't want to leave hang around with their fingers in their ears going "la la la I can't hear you"?

Coming back to the quote in the OP - I took that as a bit of a non sequitur in its original context. Sorry can't remember who said it - are you on this thread? - but I thought it meant something like "don't worry about the theory, just get what you need in practice" as if the theory gets in the way of the practice and a person in extremis need not bother with theory, or shouldn't.

But the theory informs the practice and can be vitally sustaining to a person in extremis.

I feel there is a false dichotomy being drawn between theory and action; and a potentially dangerous one as it plays into the idea that feminism is a verbal luxurious pastime of building castles in the sky, and those who are forced to live "real" life will find themselves dispensing with it.

For those who don't actually believe in god, isn't going to church a bit pointless? Why don't they join a social club of some kind?

My mum goes to church for the religious element, but she also is a member of a knitting/ embroidery club, and this is her main social life. They get together, ostensibly to discuss patterns/ techniques/ whatever you do with knitting, but mainly to have a good gossip and drink copious amounts of tea. It seems to keep her happy!

Can't link to the actual survey (summarised here, but there is evidence that going to church does have a link to increased happiness, although - interestingly - it appears not so much that having faith makes you happy, as the social network that you get from being part of a group.

Which backs up some of what people have said:

• that happiness is more than having a relationship with one single other person
• that you need something beyond yourself and your family to be a part of
• possibly also that having tasks and clearly defined goals (fundraising for a charity, forming a prayer group, whatever) is more satisfying than housework or the ambiguous achievements of childrearing.

So - religion per se doesn't necessarily make you unhappy, but I think it's interpretation and application to everyday life can be destructive (as in Jing's example above). In particular, where your congregation partakes in 'groupthink' and pressures you to do something that isn't necessarily what you would choose.

I'm a practicing Catholic, but very much on the liberal wing, and am as as some atheists about some of the interpretations of the Bible I hear.

About 3 years ago I ws at mass where the sermon was a step back in time - warning of the perils of the godless Communists in Russia. Poor old divil of a priest must have been regressing back to his youth.

at Father 25 mins.

Jing - that's really sad.

My PIL are very religious and told DH & ex that being unhappy wasn't a good enough reason for a divorce. THey hammered it in to them. The relationship ended with adultary on both sides (Though not until they were living apart). DH still has huge amounts of guilt over this and feels he should have stayed for the kids even though he and ex were so unhappy.

I know that's not a feminist anecdote but I think it clearly shows that happiness can even be something we are are told not to go for.

Hmm. My church has a woman vicar and another woman who's training to be a vicar ... still didn't stop one of the other vicars doing a father's day sermon about how it's just naturally more difficult to be a dad because men find it harder to be affectionate what with going out to work and being busy.

I nearly walked out. Prat.

We also have an 80-something man who does fantastic, rambling, sceptical sermons about how the C of E isn't close to liberal enough, and I like him, so I stay around.

Yeah, I find that my (female) minister tends to avoid the book of Genesis

That's straight from the Book of Genesis, isn't it:

"Unto the woman he [God] said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

I am quite freaked out that someone today would say something like that without irony.

Disclaimer: I am Christian.

But I don't get the Virgin Mary as a 'comfort'.

so true about religion. I was told just recently by a relative of dh "God made women to suffer, he has made our lives difficult, but he gave us the virgin Mary to comfort us." Why would anyone worship a god who they believe is deliberately causing them as women to suffer? I just don't understand it.

I agree with that ... I think that aspect of religion could be something that develops because, in a nasty, harsh, irrational world it gives you comfort to rationalize and find a use for your suffering ... but then the theology becomes a straightjacket and the flipside of suffering is seen as wrong.

sunshineandbooks, I agree 100%, it isn't about numbers or competition. That's my point really. All I said was that if initiating divorce is confused with initiating divorce proceedings and men's depression is more often not reported or misdiagnosed the numbers and assumptions that the thread started off with that it is mainly women who leave marriage and are depressed aren't clear cut. I think that is important to feminists because good judgement is based on knowledge/evidence rather than beliefs.

I do agree with the OP that there is a lot of propaganda about bagging a man and living happily ever after which I think raises unrealistic expectations. When the expectations aren't realised there is much disappointment and bitterness. Relationships seem to work better and last longer when expectations aren't so high, there is empathy and understanding and the parties do most things independently of each other but enjoy each others company when they are together.

YY "If you stay in that situation long enough, you persuade yourself you really should be happy, too."

Especially if you are supposed to be happy and fulfilled. No one imagines themselves in a bad relationship, you should be happy, if you weren't happy you wouldn't stay. Few women (I would imagine) think they would be anything less than happy as a mother which ignores the reality that being a Mother can be boring, frustrating, tiring etc.

It comes back to choice doesn't it.

Many women would prefer to be out at work, many men would prefer to be at home with the children.

At the moment there is little choice and that is a route to unhappiness.

As someone who actually enjoys working in the jobs that I have done - I find the common belief that not working is fantastic and being at home with children is a dream come true - as per comradejing's comments she has heard - is strange. If people stopped to think for 2 mins they might realise that being at home with children can be tedious and hard work. I don't think people do realise though until they've done it themselves.

At least if you don't like your job you can look for another one. If you don't like looking after your children then in many cases you are stuck.

No, I think that's a huge thing - 'No one told her she should be happy and that happiness was worth striving for.'

I mean - that's it, isn't it? All these posts from women in Relationships asking oh-so tentatively if they're being a bit mean to their DH because they don't want sex/don't like him watching hardcore porn/are with a gaslighting cocklodger ... that's what it's all about, that no-one has told them they should expect more.

If you stay in that situation long enough, you persuade yourself you really should be happy, too.