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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this a compromise too far? I'd like a feminist viewpoint on this.

163 replies

UndercoverFeminist · 22/08/2011 16:35

OK, I've set up a new account for this, so if you work out who I am, please don't give my regular name.

dh & I have been having major troubles - not many big arguments, but we are now pretty much at an impasse. we are still good friends & get a lot of emotional support from each other, but there is no 'wow' factor, or wish for one, or anything on either side.

we would also like more freedom/flexibility than a traditional marriage allows for.

however, if we split up & live separately, as well as all the emotional fall out (and bot our families will see this as a worse-than-death scenario, and never get over it), there are a huge number of practical difficulties.

basically, we would go from being financially comfortable, happily co-parenting, able to help out etc etc, to having barely enough money to support two houses, no family support & single parents, no companionship etc.

the house we live in is big enough that we have separate rooms, and dh works from home in an office, we kind of live amicable, but fairly separate lives, with dd happy.

HOWEVER - dh just assumes I will do most/all 'wifework'. It has been one of our big issues & one I don't see being resolved. IF we split up, he would have to pay spousal and child support. So if we acknowledge that we are 'over' but continue to co-exist in the same house, I would benefit from his higher salary, and having a back-up parent on hand, but be stuck with being a 'housewife', plus having work.

but then I would be in that position anyway if we split up, and with significantly less money & support.

we live thousands of miles from family, so we could be fairly open about our situation here, without the trauma of telling parents that we're getting divorced.

I have to log off for a while, but would love to know how you lot think this could work out. am i being a complete idiot to think about a 'house share' rather than separating completely?

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LeninGrad · 24/08/2011 16:38

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northernruth · 24/08/2011 16:32

Actually Chipping makes a really good point, you can implement your plan and then if you are pissed off after 3 months you can still move out. Nothing needs to be cast in stone.

I think by the sounds of it you want to stay put and compromise but you think you are selling yourself short. In that case, give yourself permission to prostitute yourself for a while if it gets you what you want in the long run - you don't have to justify your decision to anyone but you and your family (and certainly not to us)

LeninGrad · 24/08/2011 15:57

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LeninGrad · 24/08/2011 15:52

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LeninGrad · 24/08/2011 15:51

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HerBeX · 24/08/2011 15:36

"if there is no way of saving the marriage"

?

You sound like you're not sure?

UndercoverFeminist · 24/08/2011 15:28

exactly, chipping, hence me using mn to get ideas & think it through. as you can imagine, it's hard to be logical. just going over this now is making me shaky & teary.

I DO have a good group of friends, (who don't know), a gp, therapist & solicitor who all make me feel very supported & protected. but ultimately I have to work this out for myself.

if there is no way of saving the marriage, I want to be independent for myself, completely.

I have tried the getting him to be in charge for x times, it works for a short time, just like him cooking one meal a week worked for 2 weeks. it will be a case of 'shut up and put up' until I can get myself together. hence, why I know I'm being the dutiful little housewife until I can sort things out properly.

btw, as regards money, I spent 2 hours discussing it with the solicitor, she couldn't see a way to make it work either, so it's not me hanging on to a nice lifestyle & being greedy, I'm just staring the facts in the face.

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HerBeX · 24/08/2011 15:23

Yes I think I agree with Chippin. If your marriage is really over, why share your plans with him? It sounds as though you think that by doing so, you'll regain a sense of control and self-respect, but you're more likely to get that by making up your mind what you're doing and then getting on with it. If it takes 2 years, so be it, but you've made the decision and telling him about it without actually changing anything, won't make any difference at all except perhaps to make you feel even more resentful of him because telling him won't change his behaviour.

ChippingIn · 24/08/2011 15:04

The thing is though if you make your mind up - you don't have to tell him what your two year plan is... I would only tell him that you are fed up of him not being a part of the running of the house - from now on he's in charge of DD's on Tuesday & Friday nights (or whatever suits you) without fail, he now needs to do his own laundry, shopping & cooking and cleaning up after himself.

Build up your financial security and career - see how it goes. I don't see you have anything to lose by trying this and once you have made your mind up you may lose your sense of limbo - you don't have to share your every thought - he certainly hasn't been Hmm

ChippingIn · 24/08/2011 15:01

Part of me wants to say 'leave it as it is' and get as much out of the situation as you can (money, security etc) and schedule in times when he is responsible for DD without fail. Give up on the counselling. Tell him you are fed up of things the way they are and from now on he does his own shopping, meals, laundry etc. Book the cleaner for once a week. Keep working towards building up your income and seeing how long you can put up with it for.

The other part of me wants to say 'get the hell out' and get started on building a life for you and DD on your own.

Bloody hard isn't it.

I think I'd go for A in the first instance as you can do A then B, but not B then A.

UndercoverFeminist · 24/08/2011 14:53

the more I think about this, the more I realise that I'm trying to get up the courage to confront him, and make us move on from this stalemate.

It almost doesn't matter how we resolve things - we DO need to resolve them. He's v much a 'head in the sand' type person who would let this drift for a very long time. I'm too impatient for that.

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UndercoverFeminist · 24/08/2011 14:37

ok, wouldn't get benefits in the UK as haven't been paying NI, and I would be leaving a job voluntarily to move back there. I'm sure I would after a lot of paperwork, but it could take a while & I would much rather be independent.

I'm in my 40s, and dd was ivf, we did try for a 2nd child but didn't work out, and hugely unlikely now. I also wouldn't want to rush into a relationship just cos I get broody.

his mum is of the 'only good news' type thing, she can cry for hours cos some-one didn't give her enough attention, and she was recently widowed, so now would be kicking her while she's down. not that i intend to live my life for other people, but nor can i knowingly add to her pain.

my parents are the kind who still try to pretend that my cousin didn't have a baby, then get married, my mum gives a kind of nervous laugh, and says 'well, she's got it right now' when it's mentioned. another cousin lives with her boyfriend, but my parents pretend that it isn't so (she's late 20s btw, been together for years). to them, divorce is worse than death. they would immediately demote me from 'married woman' status to 'troublesome teen' because I don't have a man attached to keep control of me.

so I'm thinking that I would never want to move back too close to them, however much they love me.

h can be very hands on, does do some stuff around the house, but thinks that because I'm not at work ALL the time, I should be doing everything. his job is the biggest thing in his life, and always has been. his parents made it v clear to him that he had to be successful or they'd disown him. he is both fearful & resentful about these things, but can't stop himself from working, and expects me to support him emotionally (yes, he has been for therapy).

and, yes, he is 'having it all' if we stay together as an unequal house share. but then I am getting some benefit & buying time to get myself set up. it could be as soon as this winter that I get more work, and def. some more coming my way next summer, so this is temp. not a permanent solution. in the meantime, we could start sorting out money. most of our money is in the UK, if we just pull it out & bring it over, then we'll lose, not just a little, but so much that we end up with not enough to go round. if we do it gradually, don't pay penalty clauses, get a good exchange rate, then we can have enough that we can both be independent.

there have been problems with this marriage for the past decade, waiting one or two years doesn't seem so hard compared with the last few years.

BUT I still feel like I'm selling myself - my housework for his higher salary.

Incidentally, you'd think we got on fine if you knew us - we're happy & laid back, even when it's just two of us, but I can't get over the things he's said when he has an outburst, and I know he doesn't love me, but he doesn't want to move on.

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LeninGrad · 24/08/2011 09:49

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northernruth · 24/08/2011 09:15

I don't really understand why you have to stay in that house - surely it would be easier if you split and both got smaller places?

But what a situation to be in. He sounds like a petulant small boy griping about his freedom and not wanting men to pay for the upkeep and security of their children.

I think your solution gives him exactly what he wants - freedom, no financial pain, and out of his marriage. And for what? So that you don't have him feel he's the guilty party? You are not responsible for his hurt feelings.

Bear in mind that if you split he will have DD some of the time so then he will still be able to feed her Maccy Ds and plain pasta if that is his choice. My nieces regularly come back from their father's not haing been fed or smelling of crisps when they have been there for 5 hours on a Sunday.

If you want it to work then I would sit down with him and go through it all, decide what division of labour you want. I'd be inclined to stop doing his washing, ironing etc. Don't cook a meal for him. Stop sending birthday cards to his family. Agree on a division of labour for the garden and get the cleaner in once a week. Perhaps agree that if you have less hours one week that you will do X amount of extra housework/ duties. Show him your calculations to demonstrate the financial consequences of him refusing.

You have my utmost sympathy - yours sounds like an extreme version of my own domestic wars. Funny how they can leave early when they want to play football but not when you need them home so you can go out........but that's a whole other thread.

Good luck with it and I hope you can work it out.

Himalaya · 24/08/2011 09:02

Could you split the house physically, in a way that reflects the reality of your relationship? He gets a granny flat and freedom and looks after his own laundry, food etc and has dd to visit.. You and DD live in the main house and look after you and dd?

I have a friend whose parents did that, it seemed to work for them.

My parents did something more like what you are describing. It was ok, but not great .

One thing I would say is whatever you do, tell everyone the same story (including distant relatives) - don't make your DD feel like she has to cover up your family arrangement when she talks to Grand parents etc

foreverwino · 24/08/2011 04:12

Also, how old are you?

You said you'd like a new relationship/family. This could happen within 2 years if you break now. You dont need to assume that your only choices are this vs single motherhood.

foreverwino · 24/08/2011 04:09

I think you should kick him out and see what happens.

Btw, why do you think you cant get benefits in the uk? If you are a brit citizen and moved back here you'd be eligible surely?

UndercoverFeminist · 24/08/2011 01:59

we have been going for counselling, last time we got to a 'crunch point' and suddenly - he's too busy at work to be able to go right now.

the thing that really bothers me atm, is the idea that in order to explain/justify this idea, I end up sounding like people who support the sex industry, ie
if you're being exploited, but know that that's the deal, then you're not really being exploited, you're a willing participant.
and, well I'm the one making the money out of this, so I'm not really being exploited.

if we did go for divorce, it would mean selling off assets & losing a lot of money, which I could live with BUT h would be very upset about & it could v quickly turn v acrimonious. there are times when he's been verbally abusive (very very few times, but enough that I'm wary), so partly I'm trying to do that 'be a non-person' and just slip gradually away, rather than cause any big sudden rift.

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Handango · 24/08/2011 00:29

I'm so sorry you're going through this, sounds really horrible, is too easy to put up with crap relationship. No judgement honestly, just get out, free, self, fuck financial consequences, it's really not so bad living in a little flat in not the best area...really

HerBeX · 23/08/2011 23:43

UF, is he just trying to delay hte inevitable?

Or does he genuinely not realise that his marriage is over?

What will you do if he does the "OMG let's go for counselling, I'll do anything to keep you, how can you throw all this away" thing?

UndercoverFeminist · 23/08/2011 23:26

legally I am entitled to 50% of joint savings, then child support & spousal support is worked out according to needs, ability & how much we each care for dd.

Once we've split the savings, one of us could get a small house outright, BUT the income coming in each month, between the two of us, is not enough to pay for the cost of running two houses - tax, gas, electric etc. However we might juggle things, whether fairly or not, it isn't possible to cover 2 lots of bills without selling the bigger house we're in atm.

So, as that is the case, I'd rather just get my own place, be responsible for me, then any child support etc that I get would be a bonus - i do NOT want to be relying on that. What if he loses his job, gets sick etc etc. I know those things can happen anyway, but if you're a family under one roof you can work together, if you're a single parent relying on money, there's nothing you can do except wave the money goodbye.

There's a very good chance that my main job will become ft within the next two years, as which point I can be completely self sufficient. Even if it doesn't it gives me time to save up and use that money to get me set up independently.

and yes, i take on board that this is a bit of a 'wishy washy' solution - but still more defined than the current situation, where we aren't even going for counselling or discussing it, and any hint of discussion leaves him running for the study, too busy to talk.

a year ago, when he had a huge outburst & wanted to end things, I said I suspected he'd just bury his head in the sand & gradually make it so that I end up kicking him out cos he's so bad at making decisions. and here we are now. if i do just flip, and show him the door, then he gets to walk away, confident that he is the victimized good guy, and I get left with a house I can't afford & relying on him being enough of a 'gentleman' to support dd & I.

my current solution is one where i feel like i'm making myself into his maid, but in the long run, i get what i want - independence & security. with the short-term gain of acknowledging what our marital status really is.

he has a big job deadline at the end of Sep. After that I'm going to insist on more counselling (or he leaves, pronto) and start trying to move this situation forward. We are 'stuck' atm, and he is getting all the benefits of having a wife, without having to emotionally commit.

the more i write here, i more i realise that he has to go, doesn't he? sooner or later, i see no way out of this.

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LeninGrad · 23/08/2011 19:26

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LeninGrad · 23/08/2011 18:48

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HerBeX · 23/08/2011 18:26

Surely he doesn't have a say in whether he stays or not? A judge decides that? What are the divorce laws like where you live?

Also your DH may react very differently to how you expect, if you push him to make a decision. It's amazing how many men start wailing about how much they love you and can't we just work it out, don't throw it all away, after years of not being "on board" as you describe it, once they realise that their live in maid won't be around anymore. He may react like that, or react with anger and insist on a divorce now.

The other thing is, this sounds to me like you telling him you want a divorce finally, without er, telling him you want a divorce. In a sense, it's giving him more time to prevaricate and maybe giving him the message that you're not serious about wanting your life to change.

I don't have a solution, it sounds like a horrendous situation you're in, I'm just throwing out random thoughts that may or may not help you reach a decision. Hope you manage to find a solution that works for you.

UndercoverFeminist · 23/08/2011 17:59

yes, well, Lenin, you may well have a point there.
he doesn't think it's fair that 'the woman' always gets to keep the house. or that he should have to work to pay a mortgage for me while i stay here.
sigh.

so, basically, i'm willing to prostitute myself do his housework, for a couple more years, til I am back on my feet & able to take care of myself.

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