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Original poster

Is this a compromise too far? I'd like a feminist viewpoint on this.

163 replies

UndercoverFeminist · 22/08/2011 16:35

OK, I've set up a new account for this, so if you work out who I am, please don't give my regular name.

dh & I have been having major troubles - not many big arguments, but we are now pretty much at an impasse. we are still good friends & get a lot of emotional support from each other, but there is no 'wow' factor, or wish for one, or anything on either side.

we would also like more freedom/flexibility than a traditional marriage allows for.

however, if we split up & live separately, as well as all the emotional fall out (and bot our families will see this as a worse-than-death scenario, and never get over it), there are a huge number of practical difficulties.

basically, we would go from being financially comfortable, happily co-parenting, able to help out etc etc, to having barely enough money to support two houses, no family support & single parents, no companionship etc.

the house we live in is big enough that we have separate rooms, and dh works from home in an office, we kind of live amicable, but fairly separate lives, with dd happy.

HOWEVER - dh just assumes I will do most/all 'wifework'. It has been one of our big issues & one I don't see being resolved. IF we split up, he would have to pay spousal and child support. So if we acknowledge that we are 'over' but continue to co-exist in the same house, I would benefit from his higher salary, and having a back-up parent on hand, but be stuck with being a 'housewife', plus having work.

but then I would be in that position anyway if we split up, and with significantly less money & support.

we live thousands of miles from family, so we could be fairly open about our situation here, without the trauma of telling parents that we're getting divorced.

I have to log off for a while, but would love to know how you lot think this could work out. am i being a complete idiot to think about a 'house share' rather than separating completely?

OP posts:
HerBeX · 26/08/2011 14:16

UF, it sounds like you're still at that stage where you think "if only he would be/ do/ acknowledge xyz, it would all be OK".

But there's the rub, you already know he never will be/ do/ acknowledge xzy, so you've got no basis to have any hope. No amount of counselling will give someone different attitudes and values to what they already have, if they are going into counselling with the aim of keeping the status quo with the elimination of the other person complaining about that status quo. Which is where he's coming from, by the sound of it.

I know someone who was stuck at that stage for about 10 years. My mother was stuck at it for the whole of her marriage. Being stuck there prevents you moving on, but hopefully reading the books and getting on with your plans, might help you get beyond it.

Hardgoing · 26/08/2011 14:14

The things that would have broken it for me wouldn't have been the drudgery, it would be the rejection (you said he says he doesn't love you IIRC and wants out of the marriage) and the lack of sex life. Even if you turned into the perfect wife (and what kind of burden is that to put on a person), I just couldn't live with the rejection. It eats away at who you are. So, to me, it wouldn't be about who does the household chores (as this is a subject of disagreement for many people) but is this a relationship with someone who loves me? Everything you are doing to re-establish yourself in terms of financial independence and work is great (I wouldn't worry about getting a morgage this second, I rent, it's no big deal). I feel like his version of you is what you believe and I think you are better than that in so many ways.

Original poster
UndercoverFeminist · 26/08/2011 14:03

yes, the lack of money is all to do with living overseas. i am getting myself established, but until a few months ago, i had no credit rating at all , not just a bad credit, but if someone ran a check on me, my name simply didn't come up, as if I didn't exist. So now I have a job & bank account, that is improving very quickly, but it will still cause problems for things like setting up accounts with gas, electric etc. Almost no chance of getting a mortgage - so waiting a little longer builds that up as well. Otherwise, I will have to rely on having cash to set up phone account etc.

Of course, H is being fine atm, happy & relaxed, chatting nicely, no criticism etc. I am going to push for a return to counselling asap, and write up some notes about how I feel about things, and what is important to me. Then I will have clear in my head what I want.

This thread has helped me with that a lot.

H could prevent me from returning to the UK - in fact, I would need his permission to remove dd, but I think that would be OK. I shall start drawing up lists - chances of a job, income, housing costs etc for here & the UK. I am starting to see this as an exit strategy, and giving up any hope of him admitting how much he expects me to do, with how little thanks.

What is so hard to accept, is that we can appear like such a happy family unit. I still keep thinking that we could be this perfect family, with all of us having fun, being fulfilled etc, if only we could tweak a few little details. But, to me, anyway, being 'the drudge' isn't a little detail, so I won't put up & shut up, but then H won't accept that, so we're not really happy at all. And he does make me feel like it's all my fault - I should respect/support his work more, and keep the house perfect etc etc.

I do know exactly what all this means. I'm so very confused about it all. If I could sort that out, I'd know for sure that this isn't really a marriage.

OP posts:
Hardgoing · 26/08/2011 10:20

You already sound a bit mentally freer, if you know what I mean. I think fear everyone else won't be able to cope with this news is a powerful thing and can stop you moving on. Actually, though people are sad for you and your mum and dad may say 'is there no hope then?', it is quite normal these days and so it becomes just one of those things and not this earth-shattering revelation. Telling RL friends and family things aren't great in your marriage is one way of making it real for you, and, as you say, preparing the way for separation etc.

I think it's awful that separation would mean that level of poverty for you. I do feel more than ever though, that what this is saying is that you are essentially staying there through economic dependence, not some nice co-parenting agreement. That is quite tragic in this day and age, to honestly not be able to live separately from a man though being utterly dependent on their wage (choosing this is obviously different). It sounds like something out of the Victorian era. Thank goodness it looks like you will be able to get more work and get out of there. If I remember rightly, you live abroad- so returning to the UK, even if you don't get full benefits immediately may be a choice, I'm sure you will be entitled to something after a time, and there may be work here too and family- I guess I'd start to think about where you want to be and what will work for you in the long-term.

Original poster
UndercoverFeminist · 25/08/2011 14:43

dd is almost 8

I love the idea of having my own place & being independent. it's just that the money is so tied up atm, that it would be very hard to be separate. i'm not just talking small flat, but maybe having to choose between food or medical care level of hand-to-mouth.

so if i can just grit my teeth & hang in there til the work picks up, it would make a huge difference.

in the meantime, i have set up my own amazon account & will get those books delivered to work (i've read parts of the bancroft before, not just comments on here btw). i am putting as much money aside as poss. to build up the savings, and i am looking into housing, to see where i could end up - makes it much easier to change things if you know where you're headed.

i'm also being far more open about how i feel about dh with my friends - i'm kind of paving the way here iyswim.

we live in a small close-knit community, where everyone knows everyone. it won't take much of me saying things before loads of people, including the bloke mates he has, will hear rumours. if they get back to him, it's v likely he'll show his true colours. i'm not doing this to create a situation, but because i'm fed up of the duplicity.

even where i work is where dd goes to school - so if i tell people there that there are problems, then her teachers will know (which is good) and so will the other parents (not so good, but inevitable) however, it's the kind of place where they're likely to cook me dinners & help me move, rather than judge me.

yesterday, i spoke to one of the bosses at work, and she mentioned that there is def a chance of more work over the winter, and is herself looking to leave in the next couple of years. any extra job opportunities would go to people they know & are happy with, before even advertising the job, so it's not just pie-in-the-sky to think there will be more work soon. when i started they said there may be a permanent, part-time contract coming up. as soon as it did, they gave me the job. now they're saying the hours are likely to increase & encouraging me to apply for them as they do, so this is a realistic hope, that i will soon have enough income to support myself.

OP posts:
HerBeX · 25/08/2011 12:17

How old is your DD btw? Sorry if you've already said and I've missed it.

I think you do also need to be aware of waht she's learning about relationships from you and yoru DH and as someone else said, a couple of years in the life of a child is an awful lot longer than it is in that of an adult.

Hardgoing · 25/08/2011 12:14

I agree with Dittany, your relationship is so one-sided, I really think you need to just walk away. I don't agree that you would be better off cooking and cleaning and generally supporting a man who finds you repulsive (his words).

You do seem to care a lot about what other think: you are placating your parents by staying married (why? they will get over it even if they are a bit upset, let them into your life by being honest) and you are placating your husband by demanding nothing of him and doing everything his way (with you doing household tasks, childcare and working).

I think you are just very scared having not being on your own in the big wide world for a long time. I totally understand that, but I don't see that as a reason to sit where you are. I also don't actually see how anything is going to change as a result of this 'decision' as essentially it means carrying on (no sex, lots of housework) in exactly the same way.

I would think a) where would I want/need to live to be on my own as a single parent and b) how can I support myself to do that? Two more years of feeling this bad is really awful, personally I would think more like ripping off a plaster and just get on with it, as the fear of leaving seems to be driving everything.

I also notice you haven't told friends about this, I would get some RL support. You have nothing to be ashamed of, you did your best, but it hasn't worked. I think if you talk to a few people in your RL about the truth of what is happening, you will see that people will still be there for you (yes, sad and disappointed). I hate the idea that one of my friends or my child would carry on trying to lie about their life just to protect or please me. I think if you talk to a few people, you will feel stronger and have more ideas about where to go with this.

Finally, small flat without a man who simply doesn't love you=great, big house where you continue to be resentful=horrible way to live and things will have to change eventually. What if he got a new girlfriend during that time? It's simply too awful to contemplate.

LeninGrad · 25/08/2011 08:53

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dittany · 25/08/2011 08:36

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dittany · 25/08/2011 08:24

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singforsupper · 25/08/2011 02:24

I reckon the sooner you get yourself set up on your own, the better for you both. A year in a child's lifetime is a lot longer than a year in ours. Please don't feel guilty, it won't be easy for her whichever route you take, there is no such thing as guilt when you are just doing your best.

Original poster
UndercoverFeminist · 25/08/2011 01:46

Thank you, that actually has made me see things from a different pov.

I worry most about what would happen to dd if we moved house, and would feel guilty about splitting up the home.

I am trying to see practical ways out of this, but do worry about the big arguments that will happen, the lack of money, and how to tell family etc.

i just want to do this carefully, and get it right, not rush it.

OP posts:
singforsupper · 25/08/2011 01:38

Hi, feminist,

I have read your thread through and pick up a few things. One is that you hardly mention the impact this has on your daughter or how it would be for her. I say this because I think you are perhaps not seeing this in perspective, and you are downplaying the effects that your current situation has on her.

The other thing is that I sense you fear losing control, not in a control-freaky way, but general fear of the unknown. So it is better to make this situation continue and justify it and minimise the changes because you don't know what would happen if you split. I read through this wondering why you couldn't just split - downsize - allow him to keep your household as is his duty (to a certain extent). I think you won't do the obvious because you are afraid.

It strikes me that you feel quite vulnerable. You have been brought to this country for your husband's benefit and have few friends or family - this isolation is not healthy at all, but it obviously suits your husband. There are many ways you can live a happy healthy life without your partner, but I don't think there is a way to do this with him.

Perhaps if you can let yourself mentally let go of him it would help. Your future will not be yours until you are free to make it for yourself. Living along will not only give you space, but it will make a space for a man that will make you feel like you are 'home'. And your daughter, of course would benefit most of all from seeing you living your life in the way that you know is right for you.

Being happy is not a feminist issue x

Original poster
UndercoverFeminist · 25/08/2011 00:30

no, dittany, absolutely no sex at all for a very, very, very, long time.

and yes, I have read plenty on here about abusive/entitled men.

i have discussed, in detail, some incidents with my therapist (we have 3 between us - one each, and a couples one - aren't we lucky?). she sees his behaviour as mainly using me, taking me for granted, with the occasional outburst that is verbal abuse.

there has never been any physical violence, or close to it (no pushing past me or anything like that, nor standing over me etc).

he has only ever really lost it when shouting at me about 3 or 4 times, total, so very rare, BUT now that I have seen that side of him, I am wary, and do not trust him. I would never confide in him, or turn to him for emotional support.

he still expects emotional support from me (which is, of course, 'wifework').

he is very much a head-in-the-sand type person, who would let this drift, rather than risk a confrontation. anything I have faced up to him abut, he has backed down on. i'm definitely NOT blindly being brow-beaten. I AM however, wanting to take more control of my life, and trying to come up with a successful 'exit strategy'.

however, if he feels too upset/put upon, he could turn nasty. Worst case scenario? Loads of scathing sarcasm, a few big shouty outbursts, and getting a solicitor to make sure he pays out as little as possible. Or he might go morose, work all the hours, not take care of himself. Or he could be fine, very polite & business like about the whole thing.

So, I want to make sure that I do not have to rely on him, for money or childcare or support of any kind, which means I need to buy myself some time.

I am close to certain that he would still maintain contact with dd, although I'm sure there will be times when he would let her down as work would come first.

He can be quite negative, critical, but makes a lot more effort with her, and my worst fear is that he would be impatient with her, or her day with him would be macdonalds & playing video games (which she'd love and isn't a biggy, really). he had parents who never took him out, chatted to him etc, just controlled him, but he has made the effort to be a better parent than that.

i think he just found that marriage (ie me) was too demanding for him, without giving him the security that he never got at home, so now he resents me & wants out, BUT he also doesn't want to be alone.

part of me is hoping that he finds someone else, it would just resolve this whole messy situation. I'm hoping that if I can present him with a financial plan that provides for all of us without ruining us, then he'll agree to it & I will get what I want - a home for dd & I that I can maintain without having to worry about payments from him etc.

OP posts:
dittany · 24/08/2011 23:35

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dittany · 24/08/2011 23:26

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Original poster
UndercoverFeminist · 24/08/2011 23:07

yes, I agree with all of that.

which makes me wonder just what kind of a sad sap I am. Why on earth would I want to stay with a man who has this attitude? I'm convinced it's disrespectful, so why don't I just walk?

This is what I can't work out! Once dd is back in school, I can prob get some more therapy sessions for myself, and I need to talk this through.

In the meantime, I am trying to make things 'work' on some level. He seems quite happy to just let things drift along, but I think I will regret that hugely if I don't make something happen.

I do think we're both guilty of burying our heads & waiting for some bolt from the blue to happen - we'll either suddenly fall back in love, or something happen (an affair seems most likely), to make us split.

We've been married 18 years, I have never really been an adult on my own - I can sort of imagine the kind of life I'll have as a single mum, but have no idea how to get from here to there. Or if that's what I really want.

What I really want is a man who loves & respects me, who makes me feel 'I'm worth it' OR to be single & independent, not waiting on child support payments.

OP posts:
HerBeX · 24/08/2011 22:18

I think there's something in what vezzie is saying.

It seems to me that you still want him to respect what you're doing, to see your POV in a sense.

And that telling him your plans, might be your way of giving him a wake up call and getting him to be "on board".

I think you need to be v. careful to sort out in your own mind, what you actually want to happen in an ideal world. You don't sound as if you've "decoupled" from him, in spite of the separate bedrooms and the decision that you want to move on.

vezzie · 24/08/2011 21:54

Op, i think one of the problems in your marriage which is making you unhappy is that your h does nor respect what you do and you hope that by changing your relationship in this way he will come to respect your role and this will make you feel better. I guess that this will not happen. I guess that he will still take everything you do for granted and disrespect you even if you attempt to change this by attaching a quasi market value to your job at home.

Original poster
UndercoverFeminist · 24/08/2011 17:14

in the past year, i have far more started doing what I want rather than automatically doing what is best for the family/him. the feminist threads here have made me realise how much i have just taken the path of least resistance & been the little housewife 9as well as the ft job until we moved). sometimes this leads to him yelling at me, as he thinks I'm being selfish & greedy.

so now i have my own anger & resentment too. But I'm not such a fool that I can't see how I benefit.

it is scary how easy it is to be dependent on someone else - i have a degree, a career that could support me, i'm not the stepford wife type, i believe, vehemently, that each adult should make their own contribution. yet here I am, in such a cliched situation, where I suddenly find I'm unable to support myself because I made sacrifices for the man in my life, who now isn't sure if he wants to stay.

btw, he doesn't know if he wants a divorce, but does know that I'm too repulsive to him & he never wants to have sex with me again. I am actually struggling with whether he's just a user, or outright abusive at times (yes, I've discussed it with my therapist)

OP posts:
Original poster
UndercoverFeminist · 24/08/2011 17:07

i think we both feel stuck but don't want to call time. we ARE good friends & agree on a lot re raising dd etc. BUT there have been some outbursts from him when he's said some truly horrible things - if that's even close to how he really feels, then there is no way we can continue. the vast majority of the time he is perfectly amicable, works hard, does his bit etc. then he 'blows up' and a whole load of resentment comes pouring out.

i think a lot of this is just that i don't want to have to say out loud that the marriage is over, i'm divorced/single mum etc. obviously, some of my parents' attitudes have rubbed off on me.

OP posts:
LeninGrad · 24/08/2011 17:01

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LeninGrad · 24/08/2011 16:56

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HerBeX · 24/08/2011 16:49

Yes don't feel guilty, he owes you. You've moved twice to support his career and you relieve him of the necessity to care for his own child and clean up his own shit, when has he done the same for you?

But something is bothering me a bit - you don't actually sound like you're 100% sure "the marriage" is unsaveable. You sound as if it is pretty much over, but then you introduced a slight note of doubt a while back and I'm not sure that was just a wording thing or a genuine lack of certainty that it's over.

I think if you haven't moved on emotionally from him, it might be really difficult to stick this out for a couple of years...

LeninGrad · 24/08/2011 16:41

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