women/feminism/pregnancy

I think that attitudes to breastfeeding are related to this as well. If motherhood in general is devalued, then why should we put a value on breastfeeding, something only women can do? This attitude naturally leads to propaganda about bottle feeding being better because Daddy can get to bond with the baby (as though men couldn't bond otherwise!) and so forth.

And of course this is another area where women are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I also feel privileged to have carried my children, felt them moving around inside me and given birth to them and subsequently breastfed them. An amazing experience.

Sakura - spot on. We should not forget the risks involved with pregnancy and childbirth. So easy to do from our privileged position in the West, while mothers in developing countries die in childbirth every day. If I had not been in a western hospital, I might well have not survived the birth of my third child, and he would probably have died with me. And yet, people make light of these risks, if they don't disregard them completely.

Yes, all that makes sense to me. It's not scientific, but in my experience, folks I have encountered who have done and said things that "devalued" pregnancy, childbirth and mothers in general, have most certainly not been feminists.

I remember once being asked by a guy why there were Lesbians involved in reproductive rights and childcare campaigns. For starters, he wrongly assumed that Lesbians would never require reproductive health services (e.g. sti prevention, gynae cancer screening, sterilisation, fertility treatment, etc.) or be in a parenting role. However, for Lesbians who are feminists, even where they might not personally require these things, are capable of thinking way beyond what is in their own immediate interests!

Yes, I also think MRA folks also peddle the idea that Feminists hate mothers and motherhood and are quite partial to consuming the odd toddler for their tea!

("Love children, but couldn't eat a whole one myself" :o)

except loads of trans women actually aren't childless. They brought children into the world by immaculate conception, oh sorry I meant PIV, using their P

yes, childless women are affected by all of this as well.
That's why the concept of trans women doesn't make sense. Yes, they're childless, but they're not regarded as non-mothers the way real women are. Real women are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

"thankyou Sakura-for one horrible minute i thought i was a rad fem who wasnt rad fem"

you crack me UP sparky!

But at the same time, it's important that we don't minimize the risks of pregnancy too. Every woman who conceives a child is actually risking her health, indeed her life . Minimizing what women do in order to bring a child into the world serves men, especially men who are keen to pretend that child-bearing is "equal" or 50/50. WHen men squeeze something the size of a watermelon out of an orifice, in pain, and at risk of death, then and only then will parenting be 50/50

OK xpost with sakura that makes more sense, and in fact I was going to ask - do you mean we should be proud of childbearing in general?

I think most of us do feel that way, just not while we're actually going through it maybe. There are enough women out there who are desperate to get/stay pregnant for me to feel incredibly fortunate.

I completely agree with you justforaminute.
This is why I'm a radical feminist, rather than... dunno... a non-radfem.

There is a general line of though in society that men are the humans and women are the add-ons who have this extra burden of pregnancy and birth. Mothers are simultaneously glorified and vilified in patriarchal society. Mostly they're despised and disrespected.
So it's understandable that some women begin believing that bearing children is a burden, and that they buy into the nonsense that the reason women earn less is because they have babies. Ridiculous! Women earn less because society has been structured in a way that supports people who don't bear children, which is men, basically.

The best book you will ever get in this subject is Germaine Greer's THe WHole Woman. Her writing on this subject brings a tear to my eye every time. here's just one random quote from there:

"By investing in motherhood we would inject more money into childcare which is the only way to improve a system that at present relies on the contribution of disenfranchised, low paid, unresourced and unqualified women. The sooner we decide that mothers are entitled to state support to use as they wish, the less it will cost us in the long run. We will be told on all sides that we can't afford it. If we weren't paying to send aircraft-carriers to the Gulf and any other place Bill Clinton thinks a sabre should be rattled, we could afford it. It is a question of priorities. Dignified motherhood is a feminist priority. A permanent seat on the UN Security Council is not" (1999)

I think it is a myth put out by mras that feminists are anti motherhood.

I see one aim of feminism as to increase the value given to gestation, childbirth, breastfeeding and mothering.

I can't say that I've noticed the role of mothers or the experience of pregnancy and motherhood being diminished by feminists. In fact, quite alot of feminist-supported campaigns have related to things like maternity rights, access to childcare, reproductive health and reproductive rights, etc. Would you be able to give some examples of what you've experienced that makes you feel mothers aren't valued by feminists? It's just that this might provide a helpful starting point for the discussion. Thanks!

Are yuo saying feminists are anti-pregnancy? I don't think that is the case at all