Why does DH get angry when I explain why Lap Dancing is wrong?

Totally agree SGM.

Also, I don't "do" hen parties, but I have been invited to some and have talked to people who've been to them. Off the top of my head, I can think of, let's see, 8 during the past 12 to 18 months. There were no male strip acts nor visits to male strip acts in any of them. The closest a couple got were carrying around blow up man dolls.

However, I was genuinely stunned that 3 of them included burlesque and/or pole dancing lessons. I mean wtf really?

When DH heard this was arranged for his sister in law's sister's hen (and her groom would be going to an obligatory pole dancing club for his stag,) he joked that the "gentlemen's clubs" were missing a trick here. Why not charge hen parties for pole dancing "lessons" and take money off stag parties to come in and watch them? Minimal cost and maximum profit!

Mrs Clown, no, male stripping is not as popular as female stripping/lap dancing. (though many hen parties seem to hire them these days) but if both adults are willing (and no female partner is being deceived by their partner visiting against their wishes), it's nobody else's business imo.

Although imho one can't equate the institutionalised nature of marketing the objectification of women through products and services like strip clubs with the likes of Chippendales - type acts (which don't promote male submissiveness, control and objectivity but if anything, a powerful "hypermasculine" image of maleness,) male strip type acts are just cack. I certainly wouldn't go to such an act and personally can't understand why women would choose to do so.

During a recent trip to Manchester, our hotel overlooked a stretch of "gentlemen's clubs" and similar "entertainments." My DH was astounded at the number of establishments and the imagery used to promote them and remarked that kids from the school nearby probably passed them every day, absorbing ideas of "what girls and women are for" as they did. He doesn't understand why men go to such places, unless it is because they feel entitled to buy women in the way they feel entitled to buy a nice car or big house, or that they cave in to pressure from other men who will label them as feminine or gay (aka "not a real man.)

Despite the plethora of "gentlemen's clubs" in most cities, I can honestly say I've never seen a specific club with male strippers/pole dancers/lap dancers/etc. catering exclusively for women. There probably are some, but they must be extremely rare compared to those catering for men. The Chippendales and their ilk tend to be a "road show," performing at seaside theatres, community arts centres, that sort of thing (and I should imagine their acts won't be as explicit as those in "gentlemen's clubs" due to licensing restrictions.)

Vixaxn - the thing is my high street is not full of male strip clubs and I think I would have to travel a fair distance to see the Chippendales! Its the normality of it that makes me sick.

"He might not have been to a club but I bet he knows men who have"

Really? They are not that popular really. And so what if he does?

'plus society tells men that it's fine to go to these places'

I think society says the men that go these places are pretty sad.

"the women all love it, it's their dream job, etc etc."

I don't think society says this.

I think a single man, or one who has permission to go to these places is not doing anything immoral. It's sleazy though. But adult women are responsible for their choices. If strip clubs and lap-dancing is 'wrong' so is male stripping/Chippendales, etc.

Branching off from the madonna/whore dichotomy, it's possible that his reaction is less about sexism and more to do with the just world hypothesis. To really face up to the fact that many of the girls exploited in these clubs are normal, decent human beings who have simply had terrible experiences and been horrifically abused through no fault of their own, he has to recognise that the same could happen to anyone. Life can turn to shit for a lot of people even when they do everything right. That's an uncomfortable feeling. Far better to blame the victims as somehow complicit so that you can remain secure in your knowledge that it will never happen to you or anyone you care about. By becoming involved you are forcing him out of his comfortable illusion, which may explain his reaction.

Yeah exactly HerB, I was trying to avoid directly saying "madonna/whore" dichotomy as that can sound sort of alienating if people aren't ready to admit that that's how they see women.

He is probably going to be unmoved by the "what if I/our daughters went into that line of work?" line, because he sees you and his children as Good Girls and wouldn't be able to believe that you could become Bad Lapdancing Girls.

I am at "you have delusions of grandeur" though - the thing here is that he wants lapdancing clubs to remain open, thinks that men should have access to women's bodies for money, and thinks you've got a damn cheek trying to stop them having this access.

Yes v. good point Elephants - if the dangerous gangs are dangerous to you, how come they're not dangerous to the women who work there?

Because the women who work there, deserve the treatment they get - unlike you. It's the virgin/ whore view of women deep down subconsciously isn't it? He'll be very uncomfortable if you tell him that, but that's what it is...

It sounds to me like he thinks that there are two kinds of women: stupid, silly women who are idiotic enough to think that their worth is dictacted by how much men are prepared to pay to see their tits, and OTHER nice women like you who are clever, good mothers etc. Might he think that lapdancers are somehow less than human, so it's illogical of you to lower yourself to dealing with such matters?

Also love the doublethink that enables him to realise that organised gangs run lapdancing clubs etc and could therefore be a danger to YOU, but not to see how that could mean women/girls being intimidated into working there.

I don't think it matters if all 100% of lapdancing clubs are xyz, if the OP doesn't agree with them in principle, then the fact that a handful might offer better working conditions than the average, is simply not relevant.

I agree that he may be worried about your safety but I also agree with SAF, that when you get interested in feminism, many men feel it as a direct threat to them. Because they know that it will impact on their relationship with you, your attitudes, etc. And even though that shouldn't be a problem (because after all, most men nowadays profess to believe in equality so there's no reason why feminism should be a threat to them), for some reason, it is...

You can't DO anything...the sort of men who run those places are scum and gangsters

He might genuinely be worried for you.

I'd be concerned if a friend was making stand against organised crime.

I'd probably be more concerned if it was my partner, or the mother of our children.

I think many people that haven't dealt with organised crime need to educate themselves a bit more about the issues. Mess with criminals and you - and your family - may very well get hurt.

I've never been to a "lap-dancing" club, nor can I envisage circumstances in which I might. Are all of them run by criminals? Are all of the women who frequent them abusers? Are all of the performers "conditioned" into thinking that their sexuality?

I haven't read widely on this - as my interest is limited - but www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/one-in-four-lap-dancers-has-a-degree-study-finds-2063252.html suggested economic choices were at the forefront.

preliminary data here : www.sociology.leeds.ac.uk/assets/files/research/events/PreliminaryMediaAug2010.pdf

It does seem a distasteful career choice...

because he doesn't agree with you and is pissed off you are insisting he does.

( you are right and he's wrong but that's not the point )

oops, here is a link to it

I think he gets angry because you are questioning his safe world view

Many people do

Especially uneducated people

He needs to educate himself a bit more about the issues here

Has he ever seen that channel 4 documentary "Hardcore" about Felicity's experience within the sex industry ?

I defy any man, and especally any man with daughters, to watch that and still think any branch of the sex industry is ok and not damaging to women

Hey, keep us posted how it goes. There could be some useful tips in there for other women facing similar situations. Best of luck!

I think CRIKRI is spot on.

I wonder if he's worried about your safety? He doesn't need to be, but I would be worried (couldn't help it) if my DH suddenly got interested in activism and I thought it might lead him into dangerous situations. It wouldn't make me less supportive I hope, but it might be worth asking if this is a concern of his.

It's a hard truth to face: that your friend and his wife are complicit in exploitation, trafficking, and abuse. My partner had visited a strip-club once and decided never to go again, way before he met me. He's obviously heard me talk about many feminist issues, but the lapdancing one will be the one to cause him to shuffle awkwardly, because he knows what he did and what his money is likely to have paid for.

It's like those (awful) programmes in which privileged Western teens go off to Africa, or Thailand, or an Indian factory which uses child labour, in order for them to 'truly see' what their consumption means for other cultures. The first twenty minutes are always them losing their shit as they scrabble desperately to marry their perception of themselves as a decent person with the poverty and exploitation that they have caused. I think all of us would probably do something similar.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't face it though!

Okay, if his response doesn't sound typical of him, and he's been open to new perspectives on issues before, it's worth having a sit down talk with him about the situ. It sounds though like there are two issues running through it:

• His views that lapdancing is okay, not a problem, not sexist, etc.
• The fact that he had a pop at you for expressing a view on something that is very important to you.