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Original poster

Does penetration = presumption of power/control?

756 replies

skrumle · 17/08/2011 10:53

Was chatting with my H last night and mentioned the Romeo and Juliet law in Ireland that's been discussed on here a few times. Anyway, when I asked if he thought it was reasonable his immediate answer was "no". I then asked him: if our son was gay, and started a conversation about a sexual experience that he was unhappy/uncomfortable about would he be more likely to feel that our son had been forced/co-erced if he was the one penetrated rather than penetrating and got a Confused in reply...

I have to be honest, when I read the original thread on here my automatic view was that to protect girls over boys like this was to deny the fact that girls enjoy sex too, almost like taking a step back. When I read the thread fully though and thought about the implications for girls I probably did start to think that girls should have more protection than boys.

So, should there be a presumption that penetration equals a greater degree of control? So two heterosexual 15yos - greater responsibility lies with the boy to ensure that this is what both of them want?

OP posts:
sieglinde · 24/08/2011 11:42

Wamster, it was a huuuuge issue in the past; e.g. Henry VIII's marriage to Katharine of Aragon, and whether she'd dunnit with his brah. Then the Howard/Essex divorce case. Usually midwives would examine the lucky bride to see if piv had occurred. It actually happened a lot, and I assume it still does - wasn't it Caroline of Monaco who got an annulment on these grounds? Probably, if it REALLY mattered, you could do some kind of vaginal examination.... interesting in a way that we are more interested in mind/spirit, and they in bodies.

Wamster · 24/08/2011 11:35

I find the whole idea of a marriage not being made a proper one without the sexual act offensive. A total red herring.
Why on earth should a marriage only be considered complete if sex has taken place?
How does a person prove they have not actually had sex, anyway? (if both are not virgins)? Even if they are virgins, what are we to do, medically examine them for virginity? Outrageous idea! The idea that people can have marriage annulled if not had sex is ridiculous Either one or both could be lying.

Time to get to the 21st century and say to people: 'You've made a legal pact in front of witnesses. That is it. Whether or not you choose to have sex together is up to the pair of you, but, it does not, however, make your marriage more or less valid. You're still married if sex place takes or not.'

TheBossofMe · 24/08/2011 11:17

sparky come back!!!

This thread is not good for my pelvic floor

LRDTheFeministDragon · 24/08/2011 11:04
Grin
SinicalSal · 24/08/2011 11:01

'feminism - now with extra PIV'

Now, you see girls, you're just giving feminism a good name.

AliceWyrld · 24/08/2011 10:59

FWIW I say PIV like sieve/wiv. Or even give. If you want to be posh maybe rhyme with hive Grin

justforaminute · 24/08/2011 10:59

[feminism..now with extra piv]

sparky legs it.

Original poster
skrumle · 24/08/2011 10:55

how do you pronounce sieve? i think i say it the same way as i'd say wiv...Confused

OP posts:
StewieGriffinsMom · 24/08/2011 10:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 24/08/2011 10:44

Grin at sal. Who said feminism threads weren't fun, eh?

Feminism: now with extra piv. So you can enjoy a lighter, brighter period.

(I'm sorry, it just sounded like an always advert in my head. I'll stop now.)

StewieGriffinsMom · 24/08/2011 10:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheBossofMe · 24/08/2011 10:39

Oh, and glad to hear you're having a good time over there, saf - let us know when you're finished, will you Wink

Good god, I'm turning into Benny Hill as a result of this thread - maybe time to step away....

TheBossofMe · 24/08/2011 10:37

I reckon "piv" to rhyme with "sieve" (or is that just my odd pronunciation?).

If you are my DD, however, it would rhyme with "wiv". No idea where her strange faux-cockney accent comes from - most of the time, she sounds just vaguely mid-Atlantic. Sigh.

SinicalSal · 24/08/2011 10:16

SAF wrote 'sex as in PIV. I'm doing it now'

SNIGGER!

(proud of contribution to this clever thread)

StewieGriffinsMom · 24/08/2011 10:15

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 24/08/2011 10:13

Thanks sieg! Smile

Is it 'piv' with a short 'i' or 'peev'? I just read it aloud as 'peeve' (as in being a bit irritated), which could put you right off the whole idea ...

TheBossofMe · 24/08/2011 09:39

Posie/saf - I think you may be right, fancy a piv sounds just odd.

Albeit it, it might be useful as a substitute for my sometimes swearing around DD - Oh for PIVs sake sounds pretty innocent, doesn't it?

sieglinde · 24/08/2011 09:21

Just some fact-checks... Milton's Paradise Lost was first printed in 1667, reprinted with alterations in 1671, long after the Mayflower in 1625.

The line is 'He for God only, she for God in him.' The idea is that Eve is meant to know God and everything else through Adam. It's kinda beyond sexist.

And to this day in canon law an unconsummated marriage can be annulled. Consummation = piv (if we must use this odd acronym). This does NOT tell us much about attitudes to sexual pleasure, any of it, since Milton was keen on the idea of female sexual pleasure. Everyone is, even pornographers and rapists, as long as it doesn't inconvenience the lads, that is, as long as it happens automatically, without effort on their parts.

startAfire · 24/08/2011 09:01

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ThePosieParker · 24/08/2011 08:34

I still read PIV as P.I.V and not piv.....perhaps if we called it 'piv' people wouldn't be so inclined to do it!!Wink

startAfire · 24/08/2011 08:32

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startAfire · 24/08/2011 08:31

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ThePosieParker · 24/08/2011 08:20

Thanks all.

Does anyone know if the 'sex before marriage' rule is clearly only about PIV? Which really means about illegitimate children and support (way back) for that child or is it about not having any intimate acts between non married couples. And then when did marriage come about, because before marriage were humans just free to have sex with whomever?

TheBossofMe · 24/08/2011 03:14

Posie - really admiring your recent posts on this thread, honesty and introspection like that is hard to admit and rare to come across. Whatever it is that's going on in your life, MN is a great place to find support, distraction or whatever else you need. Big very unMN hugs to you.

lemonmuffin · 24/08/2011 02:26

Jenny - ignore, ignore, ignore. You make a lot more sense than the rest of the loopers on this thread Smile