Does penetration = presumption of power/control?

'So, sakura, even though you acknowledge that woman like sexual intercourse, you think it is your place to tell them to stop doing it?'

I must have missed the bit where Sakura told me how to have sex. Could you highlight it for me?

So, sakura, even though you acknowledge that woman like sexual intercourse, you think it is your place to tell them to stop doing it? Unbelievably arrogant, I must say.
Yeah, really amazing how people can get touchy when an insane comment that sexual intercourse should not be allowed for them is put forward.

People like sexual intercourse and want it, who is anybody to tell them not to do it?

Sakura - ok, sorry, I didn't mean to make assumptions, I thought you'd been clear upthread that you personally preferred other sexual activity to PIV.

If we're all accepting that women do indeed enjoy PIV, and it's not going out of fashion anytime soon, isn't it more useful to examine the politics of enjoying PIV sex, as I have been trying to do in my last few posts?

I struggle with the MN Feminism board as I do feel it's very difficult to express anything other than a quite rad approach posts like your last one Prole don't help, I'm not defending PIV, I don't think it needs it!

that last post was to stripey and mumwithadice and the people who are going to come on again and say,
"but i like PIV"

JEEZ is there any way of making a sticky on all my posts saying, "it's a given that 99.9999% of women like PIV, due to nature and all that"

I, for one, never said I didn't.

Although I won't be giving it up any time soon, without access to contraception and/or abortion services, I would. I cannot imagine the trauma of an unwanted pregnancy and childbirth.

Even then, abortion isn't an option for all woman. Contraception isn't an option for all women.

"My experience of PIV personally is better than any other form of stimulation, Sakura yours is not -"

stripeybump First of all, you don't know anything about which type of stimulation I prefer, (although I alluded to it earlier in the thread) you're just making assumptions.

I'd agree with you that not many women in the west would give up PIV right now, too. Many of them are in relationships with men who would not stand for it, and so the possibility is not even on the table. The relationship would end.

Add to that, culture influences sexuality, of that I am certain. How many women think PIV is sex, think a man going down on them is "weird" but get turned on from giving blow jobs? Judging by our culture I'd say, "quite a few". Isn't it strange how female sexuality sort of caters so well to men, nowadays. It wasn't always like this.
So I would say, we don't know to what extent culture influences us, and it would be interesting to see what female sexuality looks like outside of a patriarchy

Stripey, I'm with you and as to your survey, I wouldn't give up PIV at all.

I think sakura's going to give herself a hernia with all this Overton Window shifting.

I'm a bit wary of how much to post in the current climate, but I would suggest that there are lots of women who give up PIV sex, at least for a time. There are numerous threads on MN about it.

Sakura I find your posts really interesting, although I disagree with you on a fundamental point.

Can you address the point I have made a couple of times on this thread, which is that I and many other women recognise the inequality inherent in PIV sex and enjoy it and accept it as part of the beautiful and complex nature of hetero lovemaking. Reproductive issues aside, I enjoy the dominance over me that penetration causes. I'm addressing the OP at its simplest and agreeing that penetration = power and yet I still want it, and want to submit to it.

Now is it possible, given my situation (a common one) of being a woman living on the West where I have a considerate and faithful husband, and access to contraception, that I accept the physical dominance of my male partner in the arena of sexual behaviour yet am not oppressed in any other part of our relationship?

Or by submitting to male dominance in my sex life, does this cause me to be respectful/fearful/submissive with men in general?

I don't think people are going to stop PIV sex, so I think looking at the politics of it is more useful. My experience of PIV personally is better than any other form of stimulation, Sakura yours is not - we should both recognise that this colours our opinions and try not to extrapolate. As I previously posted, I would be interested to know how many women in the West would give up PIV sex given the huge consequences it can bear - I'd say not many.

How can you say that men do not have contact with death the way women do? What nonsense! What of those soldiers who died in their millions in the two world wars?

I did not mean to take the mickey out of anybody who is mentally ill or disabled in any way, but I really think your views (not necessarily you as a person) on this subject are insane.

It doesn't matter if you-or anybody else -thinks it is worth it to have sexual intercourse people do think it is worth it.
I'm not going to argue with them. The only time I get angry is if the woman (or man) is forced into it against their will.

not to mention the fact that patriarchal medicine causes untold pain ,death and suffering to women.
When men first entered the birthing chamber, as "doctors" they didn'T even realise you were supposed to wash your hands. There are historical records showing that they used to go straight from cutting dead bodies in autopsies to delivering women's babies, causing infections and death in thousands of women.

It hasn't got much better. mANy male ob/gyns are completely ignorant about the female body. They don'T know, for example, that breastfeeding prevents heamorradge by contracting the womb and bringing it down to size. THroughout the twentieth century many male-run hospitals were inimical to breastfeeding and heavily pushed formula.

THere is a very high correlation between C-section and death.

Male doctors invented episiotomy, believing it would be helpful to prevent pelvic floor weakness or incontinence. It did the opposite, evidence now shows, and yet ob/gyns throughout the world continue with this unecessary practice.
So the colonization of birth, by men, has caused a lot of pain, death and suffering to women.

"I don't like people dying unnecessarily, but I appreciate that in order to have life, reproduction must take place."

These sentiments would be fine in a matriarchy. After all, giving birth is a little like going into battle. After praying to be shot in the head to make the pain stop, I myself realized that women sort of transcend life and death when they give birth. Now in a matriarchy, women would be celebrated and given their rightful place as amazons.

Instead what we have is a culture that pretends men and women's participation in reproduction is somehow equal

It is not.

Men... men have no contact with death the way women do. Women who have given birth have looked death in the eye. No man needs to preach to women about death.

PIV causes death in women

not men

hence the concern

THat is what is commonly known as the malestream patriarchal view, wamster.

Of course men want it, where is the risk? It doesn't exist.

The big question is, why does malestream culture minimize the risk of PIV for females. Why does malestream culture ignore the clitoris? More importantly, why does malestream culture tout the LIE that PIV is somehow equal ? It can never be equal.

Everyone likes PIV, I think that's a given. The question is, is it WORTH IT for women? (we all know it is for men, every single time)

And PIV for reproduction is not really what we're talking about here, is it. We're talking about PIV for pleasure. I can't remember which feminist said it, but once people realized where babies came from they should have stopped having PIV for pleasure and found other ways to orgasm.

Except the opposite has happened. In patriarchal societies, it seems that PIV is seen as the only real sex that exists. IF there is no PIV, or if a man doesn'T come inside some orifice or other, it "doesn't count"

We've gone in the opposite direction. Patriarchal definitions of sex are completely anti-woman

Why are you so concerned about death, sakura? Surely life and death are two sides of the same coin and sexual intercourse is thus absolutely essential for the continuation of the species?

I don't like people dying unnecessarily, but I appreciate that in order to have life, reproduction must take place.

Just because the outcomes are unequal doesn't make PIV sex 'wrong', Wamster, or mean that women are 'wrong' for participating in it. But it does mean that the disparity in outcomes and risk need to be openly acknowledged.

Your digs about mental health aren't on.

It's the ONLY form of sex that will ensure that the human race continues.

sakura With respect, people WANT sexual intercourse, OK? It is a fact. Both men and women want it. The ONLY time it is ever wrong is if one of them has been forced into it. This is commonly known as the sane view.

"Are you seriously suggesting that we get men of ALL (my capitalisation) countries to stop having sex with women?"

Nope, not sex, just PIV.

Or if women do have PIV I think they should stop kidding themselves there is any "equality" about it. Where is the equality in death? Eh? IF you're dead because some doctor fucked up your C-section, because he thought cutting your baby out of you would be more efficient than patiently waiting for you to birth in your own time, then how is that "equal" to a man's orgasm?

All I'm saying is that women should stop kidding themselves about PIV and "equality"

And men should stop pretending they don'T know what that white sticky stuff does to a woman, when it gets inside her vagina. And if they do know, then what the hell are they doing when they impregnate women who don't want their children? Surely men should take responsibility for their actions? We're not six years old. "She made me do it, miss"

Wamster, honestly, is that really what you're getting from this thread?

It's interesting that we're all talking about sex-that-makes-the-baby, and perhaps how that should be avoided in favour of other many, many sex acts that exist, and you're taking that as 'men should stop having sex with women!'.

Actually yes, perhaps women would benefit if we stopped putting that one sex act as the only act that is SEX.

I mean, I can't be the only person in a relationship where 'sex' does not always mean PIV?

Why is PIV 'sex'?

Actually, that's a bloody point, Sakura. I avoided saying 'Western', but didn't really think about why. Obviously broad generalisations can be made, but there's no guarantee that any pregnancy is safe.