Does penetration = presumption of power/control?

Am NOT going around in circles, my previous posts are there for you to read, should you feel inclined

custy and noddy, you've both missed the main point anyway.

I agree with custy. It is hugely insulting to equate what is a combination of basic design and pleasure as subjugation. Physically it fits and works plus it is highly pleasurable.

Sakura[and anyone else]can say what they want-whether anyone else agrees on not.
this is a feminist board and trolls shouldnt be used as amunation to silence anyone.

sparky

i'm not a man. - although not sure why i have to point this out - i think its because being a woman must give you more credit? i mean otherwise it wouldn't need mentioning.

i recognise that this is a feminist forum. being a non feminist my views sometimes match and sometimes dont.

so here it is

how a person has sex is a choice, if your a willing participant and you are getting mutual pleasure - this is all that matters

this is important - if you are a willing participant in any form of sexual activity, this is all that matters.

if you get off licking smelly trainers and don't need penetration - or even another person - good for you.

But i will not be told, i will not even have it implied - that becuase i prefer a penis inside my vagina that i am subdugated. that this is a form of subdugation.

what it is is mutual pleasure.

and i can't even believe that the suggestion of piv = subjugation is even a conversation that is being normalised.

this is insane and all i can think is that some people have some very serious issues, i cannot find another explaination for this debate to even take place

and for this debate inparticular to have as many participants as this

LRD, I agree entirely that sexual intercourse is not the only enjoyable form of sexual activity, however, I don't know why you are denying that sakura wants sexual intercourse stopped.
She says so herself. Her posts are very controversial and polemic; it is the language she uses. Her choice and she is free to say it, but, please, I am reading it correctly in her post at 13.47 friday.
It is posts such as these that give those wishing to troll ammunition to slag off the site, can you not see this?
skrumle, sexual intercourse has always been with us, if it were not we would not have matriarchal societies because without sexual intercourse they would not exist, either. People in matriarchal societies want sex, too.

wamster - no one has said anyone should stop having sex. Personally, I don't and I believe Sakura doesn't (from what she said) want to stop having PIV sex either. But it'd probably be good if it weren't such a standard thing - other sex is nice too and doesn't cause pregnancy, which you surely can see is a plus in all sorts of circumstances.

Sorry I assumed you were a man - I reckon being outraged and offended on behalf of someone else's penis is even odder, but, well, whatever does it for you ...

PIV is the logical, normal way to procreate. Most sexual contact is not intended to result in conception (and people take great pains and use drugs, latex etc to avoid it) but as a source of pleasure. The majority of women don't achieve orgasm by PIV alone, and incur the risk of pregnancy even with precautions, so why is PIV considered the 'normal' way to enjoy sexual contact?

We normalise PIV because it is normal fgs- and I'm the idiot??!!

Ninety-nine percent of people will agree with me, by the way. It is not me that has freakish thinking here.

So it is sane to suggest that people stop having sex? .
You genuinely do not see that comments such as sakura's make this board an easy target, do you? No wonder people take the pee out of it.

Here we go again, though, usual feminist nonsense: you disagree -you must be a man! I'm a woman.

But why do you not realize that to refer to 'actual intercourse' (and earlier, to insist one must preface all other sex with a qualifying term), is a bit odd really?

I think it's fascinating. I take Sakura's point about the consequences of pregnancy on women, but there are other issues too. If we'd developed as a society such that PIV were something unusual, only done when people wanted a baby, blowjobs were the most usual form of sex, and that was known as 'biting him down' or something ... that'd be fascinating too. It'd have implications for the relative statuses of men and women, too.

But, as a society, we normalize PIV, even though it's only one among several things. And we say that's because it's the only one that results in a baby (except, of course, it doesn't always and these days, we do know about other ways to impregnant ourselves, but don't tend to think of them much as they're unusual) ... or because the man orgasms, or something. It's interesting to think of why.

I read the start of this thread and I admit part of my reaction (a big part) was 'ooh, my body is pretty cool'. I'm sorry, I understand that might feel smug to you, but I'm pretty sure there are things about men's bodies we'd think were pretty cool too. To get all outraged and offended is a bit odd, unless it's because you are upset on behalf of your penis because we're observing definitions of sex revolve around it to a degree not necessary or inevitable.

I do not, generally speaking, find sakura an ironic person.

LRDTheFeministDragon, I appreciate fully that other forms of sex besides actual intercourse are enjoyed by many. Great. Intercourse is not the be all and end all of sexual activity, however, sakura would like to stop sexual intercourse- people usually put smilies when being ironic- she said so herself and that, Imo, is nuts.
THAT is what I take issue with.

Given sakura'sother posts, it is very hard to know when she is being sarcastic or not. Anyway, who are you to say what she means, sardinequeen?

I mean ... when I got together with my now-DH, who for religious reasons was then a virgin and relatively sheltered, and I told him there was all this stuff other than PIV that could make me come, and him come, he was thrilled. He didn't say 'Oh, but that delightful sexy orgasm-making was NOT SEX and I am insulted on behalf of my penis' ... yet, sorry, I fail to see how the last few pages of this thread have been anything but that. Dog in the manger, much?

I haven't seen this all day and have just reached Wamster's first (rude) post spoiling a nice discussion. Lovely. I just want to note:

'There's always something to moan about, isn't there? The original post was a fair enough question, but here we go again: same old nonsense.'

Wamster, much of the thread up til you said this was women saying how much they enjoyed PIV sex, non-PIV sex, all sorts of sex. I'd just posted myself about how I find it a shame men only get one orgasm per time and think that's it - not my ideal!

And you think we're moaning.

You are, I'm sorry, an idiot. Or rather, if we were moaning about sex, believe me, I think it was the good kind of moaning.

How is it possible you read about women wanting to broaden the definition of sex because it's SO GOOD and we can orgasm in so many different exciting ways other than and as well as PIV ... and are irritated we're 'moaning' about it?

Although I didn't write the post obviously, I'm sure sakura will soon say if my interpretation is wrong.

Whole quote:

"Surely the focus should be on getting men of all countries, and of all walks of life, to stop having PIV with women, especially if men don't actually know what sperm does. And it seems to me that many men don't really know what their penis does, when it's inside a woman's vagina. Otherwise why do they keep having PIV? With women who don't want to bear their child?"

The first point is that the post is obviously rather sarcastic. The second point is it is talking about not having PiV sex with women who don't want to have children in countries where having children is a higher than average risk.

It's a point which is made in an extreme way but it is still a point.

Especially in countries where women do not have access to contraception, abortion, ante-natal care, post natal care and so on and so on.

From sakura at 13.47:
'Surely the focus should be on getting men of all countries, and all walks of life, to stop having PIV with women'.

Pretty clear, isn't it?

Well the whole feminism thing includes a fight to get sexual abuse of all types recognised more, to reach a situation where when it happens people feel about to tell others and report it without fear of being disbelieved or brushed aside, and for the systems to treat these crimes with due seriousness and investigate and prosecute them to the maximum of their power.

To reach a point where coercion is see for the hideous behaviour it is, especially amongst young people, and women going out / drinking / being pretty / whatever is not seen by large amounts of people as meaning that they are in some way culpable if they are attacked.

And so on and so forth.

I don't think those aims are cringey at all.

I am very sorry for what has happened to you, and I'm sorry that (reading between the lines) these people who abused you were not brought to account for their actions.

I just don't get this debate......
Who penetrates who, with what, the ages of all concerned, blah-blah-blah.....
Rape is rape. I, for one, didn't lose my virginity consensually. It happened when the boy I'd just started going out with set me up to be ambushed, by a couple of his mates, as he walked me home... But, I hid what had happened - and had to face my mother when I arrived home after my curfew......I was then, for years, abused by a close member of my immediate family. Far more damaging and enduringly so than that initial assault.

I just don't GET this whole, 'feminism,' thing. I mean; started out as women attempting to gain eqaulity with men, as regards pay etc. Then it seemed to morph into this whole thing of women being BETTER than men.
No, we AREN'T! I mean; I HAVE shifted furniture into a moving van when I had no-one else to do it, but if there's a bigger, stronger man around, why would I put myself out so.....?

I really cringe whenever feminism is mentioned. Why? Because it's gone way too far and in the process has demonised men.

That's wrong.

Just stop fretting over who penetrates who and in what order.

Get over yourselves!

I love you Sakura

Your posts always make me and I think they're off the wall and then I have a think and realise that (as usual) you are making a very good point. Which is a bit scary but hey-ho!

Amazing to think that before I found MN (and I think it's similar for you?) I hadn't even thought about any of this stuff. I knew something wasn't right, and I called myself a feminist, but these sort of ideas never crossed my mind.

I love this section and all of you, even you Wamster