Does penetration = presumption of power/control?

SF oh no I wondered whether she was pg or not but didn;t read any more entries. Bastard people who wouldn't prescribe it to her

I don't see PiV as necessarily meaning that the male is in the dominant position, as it were. The woman can be the dominant party in PiV quite easily.

"I do think it is the patriarchal system rather than individual men."

Yes that's kind of the whole point

this idea that piv sex is equally risk free, equally fabulous for men and women is very limited to a specific time and place

Oh whoops took me a while to read it!

SF's link to a blog post.

That blog post is shocking.

I can see, though, why the women here who express the view that sex is truly mutual for them are also right, because it is absolutely true for them. It truly is not a case of all piv sex being undesirable and a hardship for ALL women.

BTW I wasn't saying PIV is only to procreate but where we get our biological desire to do it.

Stayfrosty.....Rape is not PIV, it's rape. Putting those two things in a sentence as one in the same is insulting. Like saying being a single/young parent isn't risk free or being black or whatever..... it's something that David Starkey would assert.

I agree with your post at 15.34, sardinequeen.
It's a complex issue. I don't think it's as simple as painting the men as the bad guys; they may genuinely believe that the woman is doing it truly of her own free will and not because they have little choice.
I do think it is the patriarchal system rather than individual men.

I suppose it could also be argued that to some women procreation is worth all the attached risks, the point is, though, is that they do not have the freedom to make the choice?

Frankly the idea that 'sex' is only intercourse is anything more than the issue of procreation, hymen breaking and so forth is pretty bizarre. It's the ultimate connection between two people, it's what we've evolved to do, how we work, carry on the species. To suggest that the politics surrounding it make the ultimate act more ultimate is peculiar. Of course one feels slightly different as the penetrator as opposed to the penetrated, but that's not ultimate power and submission, I can understand how one can over think this. In fact it seems many feminists have far too much time to think about how unfair everything is, even things which cannot be changed. You cannot change PIV, thank god, you cannot escape the human desire, more often than not, to do it in order to procreate and so it's best to work with the relationship around it. The sexual relationship also, teach women to ask for what they want if their partner isn't forthcoming. Surely part of an adult relationship is being adult.

Obviously

That should be when straight men joke about homosexuality.

chandon when men joke about homosexuality it is quite clear that the person being penetrated is the person that they do not want to be under any circs. But then I guess that's because they associate being penetrated with being female and it's a threat to masculinity? Or maybe they just think it would hurt! Although the feeling I get is that it's the former most of the time. And there is lingo about "owning" isn't there although I'm not down with the kids or down with prison inmates in america, I just watch too many cop shows

I think that is important to remember that in a lot of cultures around the world, many people (mainly women) are not in consensual relationships as we understand it. In very patriarchal societies for lots of reasons women are having sex which they would not see as rape and nor would their partners or society but it is nonetheless sex that they do not want. In some countries (well I can only think of one at the moment but still!) rape in marriage is legal. In many countries there are a lot of women whose only option really is to agree to sex with certain men whether they want it or not.

For that matter in the UK there are a lot of women agreeing to sex that they do not want, because of pressure.

In all of those instances it would possibly be better if the sex that they were having was not sex that could result in pregnancy and all that that entails, especially when it is sex they don't want in the first place, and most especially in areas where there is little access to contraception, ante-natal care, abortion and all the rest of it.

Germaine Greer has an Interesting chapter on the question in the OP, in "the whole woman".

She links it to animals (where allowing penetration signifies a kind of submission) and prisons (the guy who is (unwillingly) at the receiving end of penetration is definitely the weakest one), as well as expressions as "I'm fucked" which is not a good thing, is it? The power is more with the fucker than the fuckee however you turn it.

PlentyofPubGardens, I've been reading Antonia Fraser's The Weaker Vessel which is about women in 17th century England. Apparently, at that time, the female orgasm was considered necessary for conception so everyone was very concerned with female pleasure.

Also, those who were poor had more freedom to marry than the aristocracy where it was all about alliance. They didn't have many other freedoms, but that was one of them.

SO glad you agree

So much anger and so many assumptions. The Mn feminists set women back if anything