Does penetration = presumption of power/control?

I think probably most women have the desire to be penetrated some of the time but probably not all the time / every time. I have never felt that penetration in the context of a mutually consenting relationship to be particularly submissive, although it can be. If anything, I think it makes M's feel quite powerful though i've not really analysed why particularly deeply. Certainly not submissive for me though.

I have no intention of arguing with mal. I said nothing about her points about urge to be penetrated but she started on me for offering opinion for some reason.

I think that I agree with Sakura that the view is often in mainstream media that piv is the only thing and it doesnt concentrate on other sex areas, especially clitoral stimulation which is very important to most women. I find it disheartening when I read material on the internet or hear women in RL that put up with no or very few orgasms and seem intent on pleasuring the man but recieving little in return. There is nothing wrong with PIV but it is a whole lot more pleasureable if you have already orgasmed through oral/manual or are very turned on which some men dont bother to do/or dont realise the importance of due to mainstream media conditioning.

I'm not religious so I don't think we are 'designed' at all.

I would agree with the statement that some women want to be penetrated at some stages in their life, but not others, and within those stages in some sexual encounters, but not others.

Ok fair do's, if I'm missing the point of the thread I'll step back and lurk for a bit if that's ok with you littleblue

You think it's an extreme view that women have the desire to be penetrated?

It's how we're designed!

I think it is an extreme view without some sort of qualification to the statement, but as both you and Malificence want to argue over premises that nobody other than you two is making, perhaps I should leave you two to sort out these differences between yourselves!

I don't think identifying that women in general have an 'urge to be penetrated' is a particularly extreme view. I think it makes total sense to accept this as fact and then work out the politics of the following:

1. men have an urge to penetrate
2. women want to be penetrated
3. penetration carries connotations of power, domination and submission

Alright malifience chill out! I wasnt even talking to you. I was saying for the people who said they didnt want as much piv but their men didnt want to do oral. I couldnt give a flying fuck how you have sex tbh and never mentioned you Calm down woman!!

Enough with the 69 obsession jellybeans/ilovedora/sunny or whoever you are this week!
How do you know what most people want or like anyway?

I'd rather not have sex at all than have it your preferred way, my DH feels the same way. Your way isn't wrong, it's just not my way.

There is no such thing as normal sex either, all sexual activity is sex!

I think my sentence about lesbians might have lost meaning with the number of negatives! I simply meant some lesbians like penetration some times and some don't, and nobody on this thread has suggested otherwise.

I think if you offered a large proportion of men the option to do 69 where the woman gets to orgasm and the man gets a bj to orgasm which most men enjoy and want more than normal sex anyway then I doubt you would get many men turning it down. If you do it as 69 you both get it at the same time, both get orgasms, and no one has the long bit doing one and then the other.

I think oral puts people off if you have to do one person to orgasm and then the other, if you do it both at the same time loads of men want to do it as much as sex.

I agree with mal in that a healthy and equal relationship it just doesn't come up (oo er) which is why I don't feel I have much to say in response to SB's point.

Malificence, nobody is saying that PIV sex is inferior. Nobody has said that no lesbian has ever existed who does not like PIV sex. Your points about biology are just bizarre, particularly about the 'urge to be penetrated.'

Part of this thread is about how much PIV sex women want to have; nobody is arguing that most women never want it or that most women want it all the time. You seem to be entering into defending an extreme position with this 'urge to be penetrated' stuff.

I said it doesn't matter "in a healthy and equal relationship". not that it doesn't matter at all.

Littleblue, I'm pretty sure there was a post upthread to the effect that most women don't get their sexual pleasure from PIV?
If women really do think that the penetrative aspect of sex is inferior, why are there so many penetrative sex toys?

Plus, Biology has made it so an orgasm is much stronger when your vagina is stretched/filled.

Strap-ons/doube ended toys were specifically designed for Lesbians originally too.

We are designed to have the urge to be penetrated, but that's not the same as the urge to be dominated, not everyone who likes PIV wants to be dominated ( although some of us do ).

im not sure i agree Maliface[19.12]
["does penetration=presumption of power/control.......................it simply doesnt matter.

as its been said a few times on this thread"i like cock"[which sardine has pointedout]
well-personnally i dont care who does and who dont....however if someone is finding this important to point out....then actually..they might not be equel.
penetration=presumption of power and controll=women finding it important to say that they like cock=validating themselves as women=while man has power and controll.
so then...yes it would matter.[ill try and think how to put this better]

sparky

Nobody is saying that women get nothing from it.

CAP?

I consider "sex" to be any sexual activity at all and it doesn't have to end in an orgasm for either party, I'm not interested in other peoples' definitions of what sex is, that's up to the individual.
I think all the women who are saying that PIV is important to them (like me) are doing to so to dispel the assumption that most women get nothing from it.
As for the original question "Does penetration = presumption of power/control?" In the context of an equal and healthy relationship, it's totally meaningless , it simply doesn't matter. Only consent matters.

Just thought I'd chip in with CAP and ask if a woman can ever be submissive doing that?

stripey talking about this thread with DH just now I realised something.

I don't agree with you that it is because men are dominant in the act of penetrative sex that they are dominant in society (not very neatly put but I think this is what you are getting at).

Surely they are dominant because they are physically bigger and stronger (on average) full stop?

I don't think you can separate out these issues of personal psychological preference, social and cultural expectations or say that a biological difference has to lead to an unequal outcome.

Clearly our personal preferences are partially the result of the society we live in, and social inequality is a consequence of social norms that are created around biological differences. But those biological differences don't lead to inequality unless we create a social world or forms of personal interaction that create that inequality.

Sardine[17.52]
[.........who have added........................]
you make a very good point-it certainly comes across as this.
its like some kind of validation for being a woman.
its a power thing isnt it[with reg to men]

sparky

So what of the views of people who are not heterosexual, or prefer other activities?

Their views are still valid, surely?

It's important to add preference over politics re PIV, which is why people are saying that they like it.