Women and traditional dress.

I agree with Posie in that focusing on Western dress in a thread specifically about traditional dress is derailing, but I can see why the temptation arises. If you aren't from an ethnic minority, you may not know enough to comment or may not feel it is your place to criticise other cultures. If you are from an ethnic minority, it is much easier to to focus on the issues with Western dress than that which is traditional to your background.

The truth is that traditional costumes suffer from many of the same issues as lot of modern Western clothing. They can be impractical and restrictive. They can expose parts of your body that you'd rather other people didn't see. (This is certainly the case with traditional Indian dress when the midriff is exposed and it's a part of the body most women would rather cover up.) It is subject to fashion and women end up spending a lot more money on clothes than men who usually have plainer, simpler outfits.

I don't think that in the vast majority of cases women are forced to wear traditional clothes by the husbands btw. But I do think that there is more general societal pressure for women to conform. Even in my 30s I have frequent arguments with my mum because I refuse to dress "suitably". Generally it is because I refuse to wear heavy jewellry and no Indian outfit is complete unless accessorised by a pound of gold. The reason why she makes such a fuss is because when I don't conform, other people comment, so in my experience the pressure does exist.

When I see a Muslim women buying Aspinal and LV handbags in Harrods or wearing Burberry hijabs I find it hard to reconcile the idea that they are not also heavily influenced by consumerism and, supposed, Western fashion. Equally a hijab seems, for some, code for I'm a good Muslim if I wear this and can get away with crippling heels, tightest jeans and a face caked in make up. To equate traditional dress as more free than Western objectification is just wrong. Traditional as well as the style that most Western women wear is no more or less objectifying.

And when a uniform is dictated to mean more than 'clothes' it is not free choice, somewhere along the way a man penned what God wanted and seemingly God was always kinder to men and thought that women, just by existing, were temptation to all things wrong and sexual.

[wonders how anyone believes such a loving God hates women so]

I am sure there are some Muslim women who are influenced by their husbands but it is simply not true of many Msulim women, are we saying that Muslim women don't have a voice now? Of course they do, for many it is a personal choice to cover up, not because of their husbands but because that is what they feel comfortable with and their personal faith.
I have a sister who converted and married a Jweish man and now lives in Israel. Ok, she does cover up and wear a head covering but that certainly is not what her husband tells her to do, it is her choice to do it.
It used to be (and still in is many countries) that christian women cover up too in the same way. In some African countries christian women almost always wear a head covering to church, that is because of what they believe that the book teaches them.

I get the impression from this thread that people are saying that all these poor women of Muslim,Jewish or other faiths are so oppressed by their husbands they have to dress how the husband wants them to - not true. In fact most of them are intelligent,focused and confident women who believe in themselves and their choice to be different.

...and like curry said above, why are men restricted to wearing a suit and tie here in the west while women can get away with much more, thats not fair either really is it?!

Have husbands who can wear what they want because they have more freedom.

It makes me cynical and whilst I woukd defend anyone's choice to wear what they want I can't really see how you can feel free wearing outfits many are compelled to wear. It seems a visible sign of the inequality some of these women live with. It is probably relevant that the area is economically deprived.

Where I am it is for many of the Muslim women true that if they wore western clothing their status, religious and cultural obedience would be questioned. Their husbands also won't let them.

I have no intrinsic problem with any outfit, I know some women are empowered by choosing traditional outfits but the women I know who have to wear traditional coverings h

I used to wince watching The Appentice and seeing the sky high heels all the women seemed to wear while the men wore nice comfy flats and that's work wear, not Saturday night stuff. Whoever is responsible for the return of the stilletto needs a slap.

In my experience, in West Africa men wear their traditional dress a lot, including in the workplace, as do women. Over here, most men would not be permitted to wear their traditional dress at work (my father wasn't). They are either forced to conform to the suit dress code or perceive that wearing traditional dress and not the suit connotes lower status, so chooose not to (my West African City worker ex was in this camp. He knew how to play the game in the office with chalk stripe suits, red braces etc. Out of work it was traditional shirts over jeans).

Things tend to be more fluid for women, and traditional West African dress for women is very smart-often more formal than the Western dress their colleagues wear. I can say that in my workplace, I would get away with a sombre version of West African dress in the summer (and have occasionally worn it) whereas a man wouldn't.

Western women to conform? As opposed to Western men or all other women?

No I was one and had more self esteem than to conform.

This thread was supposed to be about why women, more than MEN, subscribe to traditional attire. This doesn't have to be another slag off poor white women dressing like hookers thread. It could be positive about other cultures, but as the difference is gender split I think there's a discussion to be had. Apparently talking about slutty white girls is far more important. And if parents are dimwitted enough to not arm their daughters with enough self esteem and confidence not to dress in this way then more fool them.

Right posie, I give up. You want to peddle the "other cultures use clothing to oppress their women but we in Free Britain don't," line, go on, knock yourself out.

So, I see we're still avoiding talking about other groups wearing traditional attire which was the point of the thread. Let's talk about Western girls that have low self esteem and dress like hookers, all objectified and not at all about girls from other cultures that have to be all virginal and pure whilst the boys sleep around and have sex with Western girls whilst wearing whatever they want.

UK has many different regions and expectations of girls, you can't really generalise. What is expected from one set of girls in one social context is not representative of all.

Where I am in the Middle East the vast majority of men wear traditional dress, both inside and outside the home. Woman (certainly the ones I know) wear western dress covered by traditional dress whilst out but in their homes just the western dress.

I don't know what that means really

Interestingly, before I get landed on for "well, what people wear on a night out doesn't count," or some such, I have been quite startled at some of the clothing and make up girls as young as 10 or 11 are wearing to some of the youth groups I'm involved with. I suspect they often wear something over the clothes when they leave the house and get made up on the bus. I also see pre teen and teenage girls similarly styled hanging out in parks and shopping centres, waiting at bus stops with their friends, etc., so it's not just about dressing up to go out.

We've talked to some of the girls about make up and dressing like this along with issues about body image and self-confidence. In common with what's coming out of much research, they say they "have" to be like that - the pressure primarily coming from other girls, often slightly older girls. Those who don't conform either because they can't afford it, parents won't allow it and/or they actually don't want to do it are quite often subjected to bullying by others.

There is alot of pressure out there to be a "certain way" when you are a girl. I think there always has been, but now those messages seem to be getting ever stronger, ever clearer and ever more pervasive. I think this is a part of our culture.

They change though and evolve....1970s lots of hair, 2011 none. And it's men too, young males have no or little body hair and so it's more even.

Still find it amusing that in order to discuss other cultural traditions we have to talk about what British girls wear on a FRiday night and not the differences between the sexes...... avoidance and defence.

Posie, you said, "I am not denying that people wear that sort of attire, but not daily.... and it's fashion not culture/religion and so vastly different. In order to be a 'good' Brit you don;t have to conform to being objectified."

It's been a while since I've been to Bristol, but pop across to Cardiff St Mary's Street on any given Friday or Saturday night. Imho, the fact that nearly ALL the women are dressed in a manner which you may see as "just fashion" suggests that it is very much a part of culture, part of the expectation of what women are supposed to wear.

There is a helluva lot of pressure on "British" women to dress in a certain way, to wax this, to straighten that, to inject those, to stand on them, etc., but because it is peddled as a "choice" and as evidence of our "freedoms" we're supposed to believe it's not a part of our culture, not a part of our cultural traditions? Yeah, right.

Plus I find it's defensive.

Ivor.....No I live in a very culturally diverse city and don't know why the way some British women dress is anything to do with 'traditional dress' with relation to men and women.

The truth about women having to retain more cultural norms whilst men enjoy the freedoms of the UK is an important topic and should be discussed. But it's in the feminist section because it's a feminist issue and not British women against everyone else. Let's discuss culture and reasons not 'well western women dress like slags and so that's no different' line of response. It completely moves the discussion away from it's basis, which is men and women.

Ok I will shut up, you seem to know so much about it Posie, I imagine you have lived in so many different countries and cultures you are fully educated on the matter.

'it doesn't make cultural dress any less excusable for being a good whatever for women' - just shows how closed minded you really are!

Ivor.....if it's about beauty then it's no different..but it's not.

It just gets so boring when people try to discuss the chains of other culture by dress/attire that the way some Brits dress is raked up. It's derailing and pointless. Yes some women in the UK, some, dress in very revealing clothes that advertise a version of woman that is reduced to being wholly objectified..... it doesn't make cultural dress any less excusable for being a good whatever for women, enjoyed by men, when men don't do it.

Nor do most of the women from overseas, its their choice. Not every women from abroad wears a face covering or a Burka either, we are generalising. If they feel that traditional dress looks more beautiful on themselves why not?

And seeing people wearing something daily is not the same as wearing it everyday.