Women and traditional dress.

But that is too simplistic buznuz as their Muslim doesn't have to be your Muslim...there is no religion not subject to differing interpretations.

If they were not Muslim then the explicit reasons given for their prescribed clothing etc would not apply. They would be less repressed. The faith I was brought up within is similarly open to differing interpretations and often presented in forms that were hostile to women. It may be right but it is also too easy to say that the true faith is not oppressive, it has been shaped by years of patriarchal governance that has benefited make followers at the expense of women.

Crikri, that was a brill video. I so agree with the sentiments. :)

Hi crepesagogo, no I wasnt referring to any contributions in particular, just making my own point :) I don't deny what you say and what you have observed, but I just want to point out that they are not oppressed because they are Muslim or because they have an eastern culture. Because in that case, I also have those but am not in the oppressed category. What I am trying to say is that there are other factors at play. Culture probably plays some role in it but not the defining role if you see what I mean. There are several other factors contributing. Let me give another example...statistics show that 1 domestic violence incident is reported every minute. Now does this show that England has a culture of this? The answer is no, culture is not to blame. There are other factors involved. In my opinion, education is key.

I hope you haven't read my contributions as saying that as a Muslim you are oppressed. I am speaking only about the specific group I work with. You choose what you wear most of them don't have that choice. I do see them as oppressed, they tell me they see themselves that way too. I am appalled at the inequality of their lives and haven't judged this from their clothing initially at all. I look at their daughters and feel angry that they will not get the same opportunities as their sons.

Fab contribution BuzNuz.

This thread reminded me of this video.

I am new to mumsnet, thought I would add a comment. I agree that we shouldn't shout all Muslim women are oppressed just as we shouldn't shout all western women are hookers. Massive generalisation to both categories wouldn't you say. Also, if you put me in the Pakistani Muslim slot, then would you say that I am not western despite having been born and raised in England? I have been on both sides of the spectrum where I used to dress in the complete western attire without looking like a hooker just as I can now dress in a complete muslim attire without looking oppressed. In fact, nowadays I tend to do both at the same time! The truth is, I love western fashion for daily wear and I adore Pakistani fashion especially for occasion wear and I 'customise' my wardrobe to deliver what I want it to deliver and not what any man, Asian woman, western woman wants me to wear or not wear. When I want to wear something that would be classed as not so modest then I still wear it but then I wear either a long western coat over it or an ornate beautiful Islamic long robe over it when I go outside along with a scarf and hey presto, it becomes Islamic wear! Just because you cannot see what I am wearing underneath should not give anyone a right to judge how oppressed or how liberated I am. Just to add, I don't allow my husband to wear the traditional Pakistani or Arab dress apart from on formal occasions. I prefer him in jeans. Does that mean he is totally oppressed - by a Muslim woman - in a hijab? :)

in the country they come from the men and the women tend to only wear traditional clothing for "events" - weddings and funerals but also mass, dinner out, etc. in africa i would say it stays even most of the time - whether day to day or event.

similar here but in the UK i would say there is a slight tendency for women to wear it more often than men (e.g. going out for dinner in a posh restaurant) but i think that is more to do with the acceptability of men wearing robes?

Skrumle......yes the 'racism' hand ringing is rather boring.

it is difficult to criticise another culture without worrying that it is racism isn't it?

i know when i was doing my postgrad though there were about 20 students either from pakistan or of pakistani origin and the men all wore western clothing while the women all wore traditional gowns/head scarves. this was backed up by a view (openly expressed by the men) that it was fine for them to do whatever but not for the women, and that they would go out with/have sex with white women for now but when it came time to settle down they would get their parents to find them a suitable woman.

whereas my H's family are from africa (don't want to specify country) and, for example, at any weddings/funerals i've been at here where you are seeing a large group from the same original country the wearing of traditional dress has been pretty much even between the men and the women.

I just get a bit bored when people talk about Western women as if we all dress in revealing clothes, when this simply isn't the case for most of us.

Crepes... I agree totally. Whether everyone likes it or not a Western woman has far more autonomy over her own life than most cultures.

GAG....Western attire is not a uniform unless clothing is uniform. There is not one group is there. I don't wear similar clothing to my neighbour or the woman down my street, it is not limited at all. I can wear what I like. I can wear a bikini, one onesy, trousers, skirts, anything I damn well please. It doesn't make me any more or less British.

You're objection to anything I say about any religious woman makes you look, frankly odd. This is about control of women by men, afterall men made up the rules in the first place.

And whilst our preoccupation with heels or not, above the knee or below remains unresolved we have no voice in regard to the dress of other women from other cultures? Really? That will be bad news to many of the women I know. Many of them want change especially for their daughters. It's not at all about poor oppressed women in funny clothes nor about some Muslim women being influenced by their husbands. It is women forced to wear clothing for the rest of their lives, their daughters treated the same and the clothes represent just some of the ways these specific women have reduced rights and self autonomy.

If we don't look anywhere else before putting our own house in order in regard to feminist issues then we will be waiting a long time to have a voice and all that time the established male voices will be heard. It isn't cultural imperialism to insist on some absolutes and one of these is that women are free to choose their clothes (or to choose their influences at least) and have self determinism over partner, pregnancies, jobs, education, health etc. I never really thought this was an issue with a particular religion or community group when I largely knew professionals, I was naive.

Muslim women just cannot win with you, can they Posie?

If they wear a black abaya that's bad, if they wear a hijab plus western clothes, that's bad too.

And mentioning Western women's dress is not derailing, merely pointing out that our society has certain dress codes too, rather then just othering any woman who doesn't wear Western dress.

Unless you just want this thread to be about "Those poor oppressed foreign women in their funny clothes, why can't they be enlightened and clever like meeeeeeeeeeee".

Corvax, and Eldritch, I think your points are important. I feel uneasy about discussing the attire of "other cultures" outside the context of the attire of our "mainstream culture," because I think there are "rules," but because they are part of the dominant culture, we just take these for granted as "normal." Also, I'm still not entirely clear where variations within "British" culture fall. Are kilts "mainstream" because they are common, acceptable attire for Scottish men in Scotland, or is that considered an "other culture" in the context of the UK as a while.

The nub here I think is how do we determine whether what women wear in any culture is something that is genuinely and freely chosen and not something they adopt as the result of direct pressure (e.g. husband or boyfriend, legal requirements, religious diktat, etc.) or indirect pressure (e.g. peer pressure, negative consequences of not conforming, 24/7 marketing, etc.)

I think more often, we question whether the woman wearing the Burberry hijab, the African head wrap, the Sephardic Jewish scarf or the Greek widow's black outfit is being "forced" to do this by her husband/father/son rather than accepting that this could be an informed choice of attire on her part.

Similarly, we may be more likely to accept the word of a young woman in 5 inch heels, daisy duke shorts and a tight, low cut blouse when she says she feels confident and empowered when she dresses this way - that it's her choice.

It gets complicated when we start to unpick the components of "choice" and the degree to which women in any culture actually have free, fully informed choice and agency within their lives.

I'm reminded of this cartoon Everything Covered/Nothing Covered But Her Eyes.

Bear in mind that the conventional business suit is, in effect, British (or English) traditional dress. It has become so universal we don't see it as such, but one could argue British men are generally expected to wear their traditional dress a lot of the time.

Classic case in point at the beach the other day. A large mixed group sitting and eating together, the men in swimming shorts, the boys in swimming shorts. The girls and the women sitting on the green wearing robe type clothes and veils.

It made me so angry for these little girls to be missing out on a fun activity because of some made up religious lunacy from donkeys years ago.