Women and traditional dress.

Eldritch... and where did I say I only had the 'ethnics' (ffs) in mind

That's how it read to me, so that is how I responded. And 'ethnics', a term I loathe, was used ironically.

you think the big issue is my Westerncentric gaze

No it is not the big issue, nor does my brief post in any way imply that it is. I simply felt there was an inference or implication in the words you used that merited a challenge.

and I will not accept that the right to live without violence, female circumcision, sexual threat, forced marriage, enforced dress codes, reduced access to health care, family planning etc. are values that are only valid to a Western perspective

Well, who says they are? Not me, certainly.

full of typos sorry, particularly glaring is the 'there are' needed in the last sentence...

most people commenting here have direct experience of only a few different types at best, hence it just becomes another airing of personally held stereotypes. I don't understand this perspective, if most here only know a few types of cultures/clothing then I would imagine they knew them well enough to comment with some understanding. I am not sure why this board space that has so much respect for women's voices and makes room to make all sorts often silenced wants to label 'most' posters as unable to see beyond stereotype. I can't see that there is a culture quota or some points score system we have to pass before being able to make observations.

Eldritch... and where did I say I only had the 'ethnics' (ffs) in mind? I have worked with a couple of groups whose women were very oppressed, in fact I am related to the first group and they are all white. You see a preoccupation with seeing the West as the cultural norm when I wrote
'I am yet to meet a woman forced by her husband, reported on by her community and denied basic rights who wasn't part of a specific religion and culture...'
I can clarify if it helps, the women I have met without basic rights (and I will not accept that the right to live without violence, female circumcision, sexual threat, forced marriage, enforced dress codes, reduced access to health care, family plannig etc. are values that are only valid to a Western perspective) live in areas that share an overwhelmingly homogenous religious and cultural identity. It is the combination of the male spouse and wider community that is so toxic and effective in policing these girls and women. I ahve been referring to the Muslim group because we were talking about clothing and the experiences of these women are relevant.

I am amazed that I can write about women living without these human rights in the Uk and you think the big issue is my Westerncentric gaze. Whilst we may all belong to a specific group the comparison is rather like saying that we all have enforced dress codes. There are some of us who change our groups without fear or threat of consequence and change our wardrobe according to our circumstances and their our others who face huge threat for trying to change either.

FGM is practised by many people, some of which claim it is part of Islam...now you and I know that it is not true, but Islam as a religion is used to force these women to have it. And I do separate the human from religion because I don't believe there is a God. Your beliefs cannot influence how I see you, only how you see yourself.

And I have a pretty dim view of all religion, they are all rubbish for women.

TPP, You just said it...."a true dislike for things that are a real threat". You feel 'really' threatened. Not sure what you see as a threat...all religions or mainly islam as you have detailed above. You say you hate the faith, not the women. But as a muslim woman, you cannot separate me from my faith. You cannot say to me that i don't hate you but I hate your faith because then I will ask you that what has my faith done to you? surely it's an individual that you have an issue with?

I must admit, you seem ill-informed by what the religion stipulates and what culture stipulates as you have mixed up FGM with Islam. And what's the disability thing all about!

Also, I don't believe that you do still see the woman despite her 'religious bondage'. You do not seem to have a clue about the real worries of an oppressed woman but you have decided that religion - not religion, specifically islam is to be blamed for all her worries.

Anyway, this whole thing is going way off the topic!
You are talking of free choice, then try to wear a scarf (as a choice and experiment :) ) and see how automatically, you will be seen as oppressed - see how many people will try to control you and tell you to take it off because you are being controlled! Many will be so under the spell of their own culture, that they cannot even see that they are infringing on your right to wear what you want to wear. You speak of islam imposing control, see how much pressure you will be under to take it off. See how many looks of disapproval you will get. And all this because you tried to make a free choice.

What you wear will always be influenced by your own experiences,values, culture and expectations. But to blame all religions for all that is bad, is a poor emotive argument.

GothAnne, of course we can't cover every type of traditional clothing, it's a vast topic but there are lots of people on this thread with experience of a variety of different traditions and it's interesting to talk about the different issues that women of different cultures face. They are not all the same, but there are certainly themes.

Posie, your posts would come across as less islamaphobic if you were able to provide a critique of the dress required of women by other religions. The fact that muslim women across the world are all expected to adhere to different clothing traditions surely tells you it is more culture than religion that is to blame.

Women in Thailand with huge breasts???? Even on soi cowboy the fake breasts are small. Thai women don't really go in for huge fake boobs, and I find it impossible to tell their ages, their skin stays smooth until relative old age. You must have been in a Thailand in a parallel universe to the one I live in.

Unless of course you mean the western women who come here for surgery. Even then, I don't see much huge fake boobness going on. You have to travel California for that.

Fwiw, I like wearing traditional dress for formal special occasions. Beautiful Indian clothing sits in my wardrobe alongside my Armani and Temperley. I see no contradiction in that, merely an expression of individuality.

That is not just a Western thing though is it? Not just an atheist thing either. The beauty ideal touches most of us, whether we diet, dye our hair, botox or whatever and the young generation of men are not so different.

The willingness and 'need' of some women to change how they look is shocking, having spent time in Thailand with women with huge breasts, smooth faces and wrinkled necks!!

To be fair, my views on traditional dress were not about Islam any more than any other, I should have ignored GAG...she's a PITA.

And I'm an anti theist, so pretty much loathe all all organised religion.

But Religious attire does seem to have the ability for long tradition as it is less likely to have changed and had people educated enough to write it down. It can also be much more sewn, pardon the pun, into it's meaning. Although Japanese dress and Chinese foot binding for example is as steeped in the history of women as objects as many religions, if not longer.

No, I fully see the woman before Islam because I am not religious. I see the bondage of religion but still see the woman, it's quite easy without the blinkers of religion.

Islamophobia.... I don't get the term really. I abhor the control of millions, I abhor the foul treatment of women by this religion which separates and coagulates dependent on what the issue is, I abhor the homophobia, the FGM, and yet I'm still supposed to have respect for this religion? I know the religion shuns people with disabilities too..... Phobia is something I associate with irrational fear not a true dislike for things that are a real threat.

It's Islam I loathe, not Muslim women.

I am yet to meet a woman forced by her husband, reported on by her community and denied basic rights who wasn't part of a specific religion and culture...

We're all part of a specific religion (or non-religion, e.g. Western secularism) and culture. All of us. Not just the 'ethnics'. Smacks of seeing Western Europe/Anglo-Saxon culture as the norm and everyone else as other.

Posie - I don't care if you think I'm odd. You bash Muslim women on a weekly basis here, you're the one with the negative fixation, not me.

The problem Karma is that there are a vast number of cultures and clothing on the planet, most people commenting here have direct experience of only a few different types at best, hence it just becomes another airing of personally held stereotypes. I doubt, however interesting it would be, that we're going to have a conversation about Inuit forms of dress are we? While it's great that people have mentioned West African and Indian forms of dress, too often these threads turn into the likes of Posie airing her already well aired hatreds of Clothes Sometimes Worn By Muslim Women.

Of course the clothing itself can be oppressive. If you're an Afgani woman wrapped in a burka who can see where she is going and is constantly tripping up as she walks, the clothing is itself oppressive (as well as the culture that forces you to wear it). That's not to say all traditional clothing is bad or oppressive, but some is and why would we be ignoring that?

The conversation has to centre on the differences between men and women in different cultures, just as it would do when we are talking about Western clothing.

Why are women wearing traditional clothes more than men, both in their home countries and in Britain? I think a big reason is that women are expected to maintain their traditions in a way that men are not. Someone also mentioned the fact that women are seen as ornamental and that is probably true.

Also we need to talk about the differences between men and women's dress. Why are women meant to cover up more than men in some cultures? Why are their clothes generally more decorative and less practical? Why are women expected to spend more money on their clothes and take more interest in their personal appearance?

What cultures don't suffer from these issues? Why?

There's lot of interesting debate to be had, but the attitudes of let's not talk about this because it is sensitive and of course women from ethnic minorities have free choice (when we wouldn't claim the same was true of Western women) are a bit lame.

Buz I didn't say Islamic but prescribed ... deliberately because I don't for a minute think there is a universally Islamic or otherwise set of garments.

The cartoon above is good but not what I am talking about...either woman if dressed that way because her husband enforces the outfit and will never allow change has a problem. I am yet to meet a woman forced by her husband, reported on by her community and denied basic rights who wasn't part of a specific religion and culture...not necedsarily Muslim but there are many Muslim women oppressed in this way at the minute.

Education...if course, but that is something these women and girls get little of and don't get to do on their terms.

When France legislated on clothing I thought they were wrong and probably couldn't separate it entirely from having personally been amazed at the levels of racism I have met there...felt like an extension of this. I knew women here who woukd have been affected if they lived there and they said they just would have been allowed out even less than they were. Hideous all round and in need of much greater scrutiny and dialogue.

I'm surprised by this thread to be honest. Of course clothing can be oppressive. Of course we all think that we make a free choice about what we wear, but how "free" can that choice be when we all know that there are social costs if we do not conform? Of course if this debate were about make up and high heels in Western culture anyone spouting these sorts of arguments would be pulled up on it.

Crepesagogo, I'm a little confused by what you mean by islamic clothing. yes, there are many differing interpretations to faith, but a whole lot of cultures do get mixed up with it and what results is a confused mish mash. I can still categorically say that religion (any faith) is not restrictive, it's how it is applied that can make all the difference. Religions can provide guidelines. Traditional dresses (from all differing cultures) can be islamic too (or not), you do not have to be in a burqa only for it to qualify as an islamic dress, a long maxi can also do the job :)

Corvax, my sentiments exactly - just to echo what you are saying - that is why education is SO important in order for women especially to become empowered. Wearing or not wearing traditional/non-traditional clothes will not solve the problem.