I know this has been done to death - BUT!

I am enjoyng witnessing your "awakening" (as you call it Bibs)

I think the micro-managing is a profound waste of women's time too. What are they dealing with here ? A socially-inept toddler ? Or a lazy man who needs to be told what to do (like he doesn't have his own eyes/ears to see what needs doing)

AND the taking responsibility for the jobs Wifey's farming out - as you said at the beginning, Bibi. Women are 'supposed' (it appears) to write lists of things Hubby's to do. Then (it appears) they negotiate, based on what he "can't" do, until they end up with HIS cherry-picked list.

The fucker should just be picking up as he goes, buying loo roll on the way home, knocking up the supper, without being micro-managed by his missus.

I haven't seen the thread(s) in question, but I agree with the sentiment of your OP, bibs

Since when is it a good thing for women to further emphasise their status as a second-class person by doing the stuff that everyone else thinks is beneath them ?

That is just martyism to the hilt, and does women (individually and and as a group) no favours at all

I know Bibi. Dh doesn't give me a list. I just get stuck in with what I see needs doing (minus the heavier jobs due to bad back) and dh does the same. Sometimes the house gets in a bit of a state and we both roll up our sleeves and get on with it.

With regards to women feeling some kind of social stigma if the house isn't in pristine condition I tend to think that any judging is judging us both. It helps.

'Did/do women tend to remark on his doing the ironing, as if he were some sort of miraculous freak, Goblin??'

Not women whom we count as friends. The occasional elderly relative, and a few Stepfords at work, but that's their problem.

I know! WTF was I doing???!!!!

Must ... clean ... house.

I cherry-pick. I don't clean the bathroom or hoover/mop the floors and I rarely iron. Also, dh does about 80% of dealing with night-time wakenings. I am no slacker though.

I am interested in what Garlic was saying about my inner mother looking after his inner son. I tend to do most of the cooking because nice food makes people happy. Or maybe it's because I can control what we eat and make sure it's healthy.

I actually think I might get more 'time-off' than dh (he has taken the dc swimming). However, I feel guilty about this whereas I would imagine most of the men being written about on mn don't.

it goes back to having married an adult, not a spoiled petulant brat
Indeed!

Did/do women tend to remark on his doing the ironing, as if he were some sort of miraculous freak, Goblin??

I was going to get a bit annoyed with your first post OP, 'til I read

'Nothing wrong with 'cherry picking' per say Bertie if it's done in a mutual agreement/discussion setting.
i.e - I'll take care of the washing because I don't mind it as much and the other partner agrees to take on another task etc.'

We are list makers and dividers of jobs according to preferences, and the horrible jobs that neither like, we do on a rota basis. The teenagers are part of this too. No sense of 'Wifework' or cherrypicking, because we really do find different things horrible. He irons, I do the supermarket shop.
We've been living together since 1983, so most of the negotiation has been done. I never felt obliged or pressurised into fulfilling someone else's expectations, but it goes back to having married an adult, not a spoiled petulant brat.

Just re-read that and realised I was 'awfulising' to an extent. In the Eighties I had a cleaner/ironer. This was, however, my own decision and my responsibility - and I did all the other stuff. When I left him, I had to write him a manual because he really didn't know how to work the appliances, put together a balanced meal, or anything. So the point remains; just that I did take care of my workload in a rational(ish) way and hadn't made that clear.

No, I think you're right, BB. Although we perceive it as a relationship issue - that is, we perceive it (perhaps for the first time) when it becomes a relationship issue - it is a feminist one.

It's a feminist issue because of the pervasive conditioning and societal expectations, which make 'wifework' a woman's responsibility. For TWELVE YEARS, I didn't notice or question that I did all that stuff - along with a very demanding job, being fashionably groomed, etc, etc. And I was a feminist! It just didn't occur to me that our time off should have been equal, nor that he should have just picked up some stuff and done it.

To be fair, that was the Eighties and people are less stereotyped these days in terms of expectations. But I find it amusing to drop into Mumsnet threads that I don't do housework. I'm always swamped by replies from people recommending Flylady, advising little-and-often strategies, etc, all of them believing themselves helpful. It's a rare poster who says "OK, if it suits you, fine."

Since I've never once posted that I'd like to be able to do more, all this helpfulness is based on an assumption that I should do housework. I'd be very surprised if people were so eager to tell a single man the same thing.

The point has often been made that the way to deal with a nagging wife is to put your dirty crocks in the dishwasher, empty the washing machine, wipe the sink after you, and so on. And yet ... wives still nag, and husbands still go down the pub to get away from it. And the wives continue to pick up the stuff, secure the food supply, etc, etc, etc ...

I agree with scottishmummy. The question is, perhaps, why does it continue to be a problem and how to stop it?

Anyway. I don't do housework but I do clean every six months or so (!) and today is the day. Better get on with it

I think we do more housework because we will be more harshly judged on the state of our houses than men are. Social pressure and conditioning are tough to ignore

Completely agree, scottishmummy. I also wonder why so many women do work full time and yet still do all the housework.

if a woman finds herself put upon and beholden to someone else,she has to take a good look and think how did i get here

i think
dont give up work
dont be dependent upon someone else wage
and dont blame other people for all your wifely gripes,stop being a martyr.
how did you fall into such a sterotypical role.what about it appealed?

We sort of cherry pick tasks in our house. I refuse to do any washing up because I hate it, and in return I do all the laundry, including ironing, but I like doing this. I tend to do the bathroom and other cleaningy-type things, but DP does tidying because I'm one of those people who doesn't notice it. But we haven't been living together very long so we're still working things out. Perhaps I should read wifework before we do In general he's quite hands-on with DS even though DS isn't his son.

wifework.i expect she wants housework to be paid

wifework sound like fatalistic tripe.lets face it she'll come to conclusion women are put upon structurally and emotionally.women give ,men get,unequal roles and value placed upon roles

oh and i expect she wants housework to be

you know what sometimes people get what they settle for,i read mn agog sometimes at long narrative descriptions of women doing everything,working and maj of household chores too.....eh so stop being a martyr dont do it.surely you dont need a book to tell you dont be a mug.

Flamingo - I know that one. DH and I both have decent jobs. My nan always talks about "how well" DH is doing, and how I must be proud, then goes on to ask how I manage to get my ironing done when I'm out of the house all week. I bet she has NO clue what I do for a living.

I think that, whilst I am certainly no domestic skivvy (mostly outsourced and we share the rest) it is certainly assumed in my house that I am responsible for our child. It is me that organises her activities, checks her home work, makes sure she gets in the shower, buys her clothes, does the school run etc etc. DH will do it, but it is by request. I am the default "carer".

There is an element of logistics in this though. The school is on my way to work for example - whereas dh works 5 mins from our house. When he went for promotion - we did discuss the implications of it ie longer hours, a lot of foreign travel. If I had been unhappy with this, he would not of gone for the job. (Well he said that, anyhow).

I am looking forward very much to reading Wifework. I think I still have a long way to go....