I know this has been done to death - BUT!

any self help or empowering book relies upon individual action and propensity for change.its the basis of any therapeutic rapport - volition, ability to act and desire for change

thats what all the books,counsellors,etc need to initiate progress

If it were that simple, then Mumsnet wouldn't be necessary.

Neither would counselling, books, magazines, support groups etc.

really? after a prolonged period of listening to any relationship malasie id be saying call it quits and take self responsibility for where you want to be
look at how you got here
recognise and know your own triggers and dont habitually repeat the triggers

its a truism some books will empower some people
there is no definitive book that has hit the mark for everyone
thats not hostility to books is acknowledgement some books catch a mood,an unmet need for some people. not all people read or experience books same way

Reading books etc. can promote self awareness.

It can give people that "light bulb" moment.

I must admit I find it very strange that people should be so hostile to the idea of reading books.

an immediate demonstrable start is the roles we enact to our dc.
working, being clear nothing is intrinsically womens work and,not doing all the chores. all a good start. easier to initiate than taking on institutions like school or various workplaces.can start tomorrow if so minded.

reflection and personal growth comes from an acute sense of self and self responsibility. a book may trigger a realisation,yes of course.and from that stems the how did i get here?, awareness of ones own triggers and cues,and ability to accept self responsibility

its wrong their are societal pressures exerted upon women,but there comes an associated responsibility that if some women do enact,and habituate stereotypical roles,they have some self responsibility for resultant stereotypical roles.roles they enact out to their children,and other adults

and only from reflection,self awareness and ability to take self responsibility can one facilitate own change,and in some way enact a demonstrable good role or behaviours around domestic chores etc

' the inexorability of being shoe-horned into stereotypical gender roles by workplace structures, schools, etc. '

I don't see schools doing this. I see parents, relatives and the media pushing stereotypical gender roles onto very young children, and the schools trying to counter the flood.

I used to have the attitude that women must be pretty dim or somehow deserving of it if they ended up in a relationship where they did all the work. "I'd never let that happen to me" I thought. And I didn't. Not for the first 12 years of my adult life. Then I had DC.

I slowly realised that I was living with an abuser and that I was doing way more than my fair share in the relationship. I did do something about it and left (though not without being strangled first), but it humbled me and made me realise that women who believe other women in unequal relationships have somehow 'asked' to taken advantage of (at best) or abused (at worst) are extremely arrogant to think that they have that much control over it. You can control your own reactions, sure, but not your partner's. Most women cave before their men because of the children, for whom they tend to have primary responsibility. A woman will wash the DCs uniform for school because the DC need it and because she knows that it will reflect on her (not her 'D'H) if she sends her child into school in a dirty uniform.

If a woman came on here and said "Should I leave my DH because I have to do all the cooking and washing up and he only vacuums once a week" what sort of reaction do you think she'd get? Some might say "leave the bastard" but most would say "don't over-react" or "be grateful he does the vacuuming" or "men! he can't help it you have to make it easy for him" etc ad nauseam. Can you see David Cameron thinking that a woman leaving a man because of housework is valid or would he think she's being irresponsible and contributing to family breakdown? In fact, I'd hazard a guess that nearly every single reaction to this would be about the woman's leaving rather than the man's inability to pull his weight about the house.

I'm older and wiser now and what worries me is that there is a tendency among the well-educated politically minded to think that women are partly responsible for their own downfall because this is the 21st century. Sadly there are huge pockets in this country where the assumption that women will bear nearly all the responsibility for home and children still holds true and is borne out in reality. I see it around me every day.

You teach young children that when idiots say
'That's for girls'
'It's only boys who are good at x'
'Mums do housework and dads work in an office'
and other claptrap, they should ask why?
You give them examples of gender-breaking stereotypes, and encourage them to respond to situations and activities as individuals rather than conditioned by their sex.
You teach that hey are individuals with rights, and that the rights of others are equally important and deserving of respect, and you do that all the time.
So sometimes, despite the examples set by their families and the expectations of what they will become, they can exceed the limitations placed upon them by the adults. You can educate them.

Thanks for your advice Scottishmummy, I expect you know how much I value it.

I think the value of reading books like Wifework, Equality Illusion etc., is that it helps people realise that there are systemic traps that they can fall into and forewarned is fore-armed - most couples have every intention of having an equal, fair relationship and they fall into bad habits because of deep seated attitudes that they are unaware of and the inexorability of being shoe-horned into stereotypical gender roles by workplace structures, schools, etc.

"Your own experience" isn't really good enough when you're young - you need to know what the traps are on a mass scale, so that you can consciously avoid them.

I could understand the argument if we were discussing women in the 1950s, but to be saying that women in 2011 are still unaware of equality in a partnership and are so downtrodden and Stepfordised that they can't see the bars of the cage they have allowed to be constructed around themselves is horrifying.
My students are 10 and 11, I don't think I#d recommend the Equality illusion to them. I'd rather give them examples from their own experiences, talk about gender roles they can see and encourage discussion about fairness and rights.

Bex you're indeed issuing instructions and not so good to carry your gripes around mn or grumble just ignore but if stuck for further riposte
you may wish to use the ole favourites

1. what about the menz
2. derailer

indeed what one sees enacted and habituated has huge influence
if mummy does all domestic tasks and daddy doesn't its not a great start
and a self help book isnt required to tell you.uh-oh dont do that
some bloody gumption is

You're not participating in a discussion SM, you're doing your usual shit - lola's description was perfectly accurate.

And I don't feel like showing rigour or range, just as you don't. Also I'm not instructing Lola, I'm supporting her.

And yes, of course you'll continue to post and I'll wait with baited breath and prepare to be astounded by your rigour, range and insight, as usual.

As a teacher, this is so depressing to read.
All the sex equality/equal ops stuff we do in school, all the ensuring that females and males have equal access to education, all the challenging of sexism by pupils is worthless.
If you see the women in your home life being subservient and acting like second-class citizens, that's what you will be like, following like a helpless sheep in the steps of your mother, unquestioning?
I've known 10 year olds challenge their fathers about their gender expectations, some of the most empowered came from traditional Bengali backgrounds. No power, not adults but still intelligent and brave enough to say why and no and it's not fair.

is that best you can do.its an open discursive thread.
squawking oh ignore.well doesn't show your rigour or range does it?
you feel free to instruct whatever and whomever
i will of course post and participate,as is the point