Can we DO something about the awful system in this country WRT courts and access to children after divorce?

"the way I see it, snorbs' problem is that because he didn't risk his life to bring his children into the world, he can't envisage anybody doing it."

If you want to know what I think sakura I suggest you ask me because, quite frankly, your attempts at guessing are very badly wrong.

It doesn't matter what you "think" Truck, abuser do have contact by law
As that bloke on page 2 said, it is very rare for a parent not to be allowed contact
you'd have to be an axe-murderer before the courts would even consider it

run of the mill rapist and owman-batterer? Yup, equal rights.

It's common for someone to hate their father so much they poor piss on his grave?

I don't think there are any MRAs on here, just some fathers who have been through child residency issues, and I don't think anyone is advocating abusers should have contact.

Amazing that these MRAs want to magic away the pregnancy and the (life-risking) childbirth

NOT SAYING all men do that, but I'm just showing that women have no rights to their kids.
WHat does happen (QUITE RIGHTLY) the mother is the one who takes the children if she was the primary carer. THIS INCLUDES maternity leave. It also includes breastfeeding and pregnancy.

Yes, that's closer to the reality TBOM

I know two male family members who both fought the mothers of their children (one was a batterer) and both "won". It ended up being my grandmother who looked after the children , or when she wasn't available one of them palmed his child off onto his new girlfriend. But they were adamant they were going to claim their "right" to take the children away from the mothers though. I'm guessing this happens quite often--where the men don't actually end up doing the day to day care
[there's a thread going at the moment where some alcoholic ex has run off with a woman's son while on a visit and she doesn't know where the baby is. He was supposed to be having supervised contact with his parents]

What's even sadder is that she's spent her whole adult life with men just like her father. That's the lesson we teach girls when we don't cut off abusive fathers access to their kids, we teach them to spend their lives chasing the love of men who don't deserve it, dooming them to repeat the cycle of abuse over and over again. We could do a lot to end dv I think if we just took these children away from any contact with men who abuse their wives, girlfriends. The girls aren't taught that they should love men who don't deserve it, the boys are taught to respect women.

I have already explained why I wrote what I wrote. I have also explained why you were wrong to extrapolate from that to your ridiculous opinion that I view children as the property of anyone.

It's farcical, chances are even in a good marriage with good parents where both work full time a woman will be residential parent, so (in theory) biased toward women.....and yet men have so many rights even when they beat the crap out of their wives and are abusive in the family home? It's so messed up.

I don't think that a child should lose it's parent even when the parent doesn't pay up, even though the non paying parent gains, the child is the key.

the way I see it, snorbs' problem is that because he didn't risk his life to bring his children into the world, he can't envisage anybody doing it. THat's how patriarchies work. Men's worldview is THE worldview.

SO because men just have sex and the voila a baby appears 10 months down the line, they think that's exactly how it works with women.

They simply can't imagine the physcial and mental toll that pregnancy, childbirth and lactation takes. Men don't get pregnant, therefore the physical reality of it is irrelevant to them.

I do believe this is what men are on about when they say they deserve an equal say in what happens to the children.

Oops, that was for Sakura, btw. Although saf can have one too.

On a more serious note, I have a friend who, in her 40s is still traumatised by the memories of spending Saturday's sitting in her best clothes kicking her heels in her hallway waiting for her gobshite waste of space father to turn up for his weekly visit. Cue him only bothering maybe every few weeks, often enough and laden down with enough expensive shite to keep her hanging on hoping for his love, but not often enough to make her feel really loved and worthy of love. He treated her in the same callous manner as he treated her mother, years of running off with his latest fancy, boomeranging back when he ran out of money, just in time to dole out a few black eyes and broken ribs. Bastard never deserved either of them.

She actually went and poured piss on his grave a few years ago. I wish I could say it made her feel better.

snorbs, you put children and property in the same sentence.

not me.

I'm talking about women risking their lives to bring children into the world in pain

I don't know what part of that you don't get

what gets me, is that women, being full of emotional integrity because they're women, actually take the sides of these MRAs and feel sorry for them even as as these blokes are chipping away the few rights women have managed to gain.
It used to be the case in the UK that a man could decide who the children would live with after he died, and if he decided it wasn't going to be the mother then by law she had no rights to them. Because in patriarchies the children are the property of the father.
That's right folks. Men created a law which stated that the mother who risked her life to bring the children into the world had no say in where they went if their father died.
We have managed to fight for basic changes such as the children going to the primary parent "in the best interest of the child"

But there is No such Thing as mothers' rights.

And women are actually supporting men's right to overrule the mother.
Some people are in serious need of some history lessons.

I think what you wrote made it quite clear you view children as the property of the mother. Eg, "bloody men who are all up for taking women's children off their hands". I pointed that out. I did not say I saw it the same way.

I can't stop you if you want to make up stuff about how I think, no matter how laughably wrong it is, but I will call you on your bullshit.

You can have one every day from me

oh thank you TBOM, it's not every day you receive a declaration of love

See why do men always have to think in terms of "property"

Until recently both women and children were men's property until those dastardly feminists came along and messed up The Order.
Until 1992 in the UK it was legal for a man to rape his wife because under patriarchal law rape is a property crime and therefore raping ones own wife doesn't count. It only counted as rape if you trespassed in a vagina owned by another man.

No, snorbs, women do not see children as their "property". BUt thank you for giving us all an insight into how you think

Sakura, I think I love you

OK sakura, I think you've made your point - you see fathers as second-class parents and children as the property of their mothers.

Thank fuck my DCs' social worker didn't hold the same view as you.

Ah, I see STIDW is a self-confessed "male feminist" or someone who "believes in equality"

I don't believe in equality STIDW, especially when it's a male version of equality designed to fuck women over

Especially when it's the type of "equality" that pretends having a shag is equal to pregnancy, CHILDBIRTH, and breastfeeding., Women RISK THEIR LIVES to bring a baby into the world. Men DO NOT risk their lives by having a shag.

Show me the "equality"

I'm a women's liberationist. I don't give a fig for equality.

STIDW you're talking utter shite. 2 women a week are murdered by their spouse in the UK alone.
Men murder, rape and abuse women at a far far far greater rate that women abuse men.

the reason I said women's best interest is because most of these bloody men who are all up for taking women's children off their hands, these SAHDs, or these men who fight women for their children in court, have the gall to call themselves feminists . THat's the killer. Male-feminists no less. An oxymoron if ever I heard one.
Do it because you think the children are better off without their mother. Fine. FIght the mother's decision to not let you see your kids because you believe she is wrong. Fine.

But puhlease stop calling yourself feminists. Ridiculous!