The London Riots: The Elephant in the Room

Would there be less riots if there was more out-of-school provision in the long summer holidays. Orginally summer holidays wss for kids to help with the harvest. Do they make sense nowadays? What about more summer camps as in the US?

I agree that many of the men in the current generation are a lost cause. They can't change overnight. But what can be done is to educate the next generation, part of which is to do with role models, so that the next generation will not grow up in the same manner.

'maleness is being constructed as selfishness and greed an that is being reflected by their absence in frontline important work with young people and it is maleness that needs to change.'

yes I agree with that. That's why future generation of young men need good male role models in order to change the perception of what it is to be a man in society and communities and to teach them responsibility.

I don't think a lot of absent fathers can be made to shape up TBH. It's not an inherent biological trait and individual men may 'see the light' and change, but in the main I think the current generation of absent fathers will not change. It's rare for people to go from being complete tossers to model members of society, even with support and sanctions in place.

That doesn't mean I'm not hopeful for the fathers of the future, but fathers like my XP are a lost cause, and it's time we stopped demonising women for recognising this and acting on it. How dare ANYONE tell me I am a bad mother for PROTECTING my DC from a man like him. This is a man who has fathered 5 children now. He has never paid a penny for any of them as yet, he sees only my 2 and that's supervised contact only at a rate of once every 6 weeks or so (his choice - I told him he could see them as often as he liked if he was prepared to organise a contact centre). This is a man who plays the benefits system when he's not playing at being self-employed and fiddling the books that way. A man who regularly beats up women (but only has two police reports on file about it - one of which is mine and the other was dropped due to him pressuring her). A man who has hurt my DS (hence the supervised contact - although I have no proof of this BTW and if he'd had the gumption to challenge it I would probably have been made to give him unrestricted, unsupervised access).

I am PROTECTING my child by limiting his contact with his father. And I think you'll find that a lot of women who stop/limit contact are doing so for similar reasons (just because the father doesn't have a criminal record doesn't mean they aren't doing these things - violence towards women and children being notoriously under-resported).

And in cases where the man doesn't want to be involved? What does a man with such a cavalier attitude toward his own child seriously have to offer that child? How to behave as a decent human being? Really? I'd say the child is better off knowing who he is and leaving it at that TBH.

People cannot be made to be responsible. Suggesting that they do runs the risk of pigeon-holing women into the role of caretakers of the relationship and that every relationship would work better/men would be better fathers if the women would only work harder at it.

All you can do is increase opportunity to do the right thing and punish the illegal, but you cannot make bad men step up to the plate, with the possible exception of maintenance, which should IMO carry a prison sentence for non-payment completely irrespective of whether the child sees the father or not.

Agree. The good male models can only be created by men coming forward and showing interest and participating rather than opting out. It is a slow process, but government initiatives try to promote it. I have been tremendously impressed by the excellent youth workers we have seen on TV recently. These people are real members of the community and are representative of the community, not like the so many Oxbridge MPs who represent these seats.

Yes, it has nothing to do with feminisation and women, which is why I used the examples of Margaret Thatcher, Anne Widdecombe and Sarah Palin. All of the policies that we have are created by politicians. They are ultimately responsible for the state of society and the lack of adequate help, support and intervention in certain areas.

'His father OTOH is an absolutely awful role model.'

yes, awful male role models are no good at all. But I believe that the men on these estates are not all a lost generation. I believe things can be changed and they can be encouraged to be better role models. I think these ex-gang member youth workers are excellent male role models as they show the young boys a different way. Men need to be made to be responsible and to take part and play a role in offering a good example to young boys.

I agree, there needs to be far more support for families.

Tory MP David Davies was brought up by a single mother as have millions of other good citizens. No one is saying that single mothers don't do an excellent job. But in gang-infested estates, some young boys, without strong male role models, join gangs at a young impressionable age. Most of the youth workers who work on these estates believe that good male role models and men caring for their children would help to prevent this. That's why they try to create male role model teachers etc.

What if parenting was actually something that was valued in this country? Something reflected in state support for families - be they married ones or single parent ones - either through tax breaks or greater benefit allowances?

As education and money are the key factors influencing children's outcomes - (NOT the relationship status of the mother), value parenting and put your money where your mouth is and you'll surely see a decrease in deviant youth behaviour (from ALL levels of society and from all family set-ups).

We don't value parenting. SAHMs are often referred to as 'living off their partners' or 'living off the state'. We are quick to blame parents when we see the results of bad parenting but as a society we seem unprepared to actually support good parenting.

My DS has no family male role model (what ones there are are good but the nearest is 350 miles away and the other two are on a different continent). His nursery workers are female, his CM female, his soon-to-be teacher female, all my friends female. My boss is male and a wonderful male role model but they only see each other occasionally. His father OTOH is an absolutely awful role model. Am I worried about any of this? No. As long as he has GOOD role models it does not matter what gender they are. My son's gender is only one small part of his make-up. His personality, likes, dislikes, values, attitudes, talents, strengths, weaknesses are all far more important than his gender. As long as he understands what makes a good human being he won't go far wrong. It doesn't take a 'man' to show him how a good parent behaves, how a responsible citizen behaves, how a nice person behaves. It just takes a good parent, a responsible citizen and nice person.

Well said SAF

'but they are looking in the wrong direction and denigrating single mothers in the process.'

But where are they denigrating single mothers? Everybody knows how tough it is for single mothers on those estates. The problem is the men, they are the majority of looters and gang members and they are not currently acting as good role models. Everybody knows that. The question is how can they be encouraged to change, so that future young men don't end up doing the same and don't end up dying on the streets or spending years in prisons.

I have not been offensive and have not bullied you. You disagree with my views, shared by the youth workers who were ex-gang members themselves, and call them offensive. Is Shaun Bailey offensive? Are all the government initiatives to encourage men not to abandon their children offensive?

'we only need male role models if social constructions of maleness become something worth modelling.'

So do these young children who grow up to be future gang members not need fathers as role models because the "social constructions of maleness" of the fathers are not worth modelling? I have more faith and belief in these men. I think they can be encouraged to be good parents and can help to create a good society. I don't think these men are worthless, are outcasts and gangsters who are destined to threaten society and the law. I think they can be encouraged to build strong societies and act as role models for young children.

My point is by concentrating on the missing male role models rather than supporting and celebrating those who do raise children the instituitions you have mentioned are guilty of perpetuating and reinforcing the problem that results in dead children...which agreed is a real problem.

.....but they are looking in the wrong direction and denigrating single mothers in the process.

I have not denigrated single mothers at all and have not been offensive. I can't help how you think and perceive things, but I will not be bullied by your erroneous perceptions. I don't call you offensive, even though you falsely accuse me of being offensive.

'possibly based more on male role models having to prove their worth'

But where are the male role models? They are absent. The fathers abandoned the mothers and children, and the black male teacher role models are in too short supply. It's not just the Guardian and Spike Lee and Obama and the Federal Government that think this is a problem. Most of the decision makers believe it is a problem and that is why they try to promote more black and male role models.

The reason it is so important is because children are being stabbed in the neck at bus stops by other children for the sake of mobile phones. It is getting worse, teenagers on bikes are chasing other teenagers into shops and randomly opening fire with guns and shopkeepers and 5 year old girls are being shot in the crossfire. It's a tragedy. Every loss of life and injury is a tragedy. It doesn't have to be that way. Role models are needed, but that's only half the solution. The other half is for police to eradicate the gangs from these estates, so that these bad role models no longer exist and can be replaced by good role models.

feed = seen

No the gangs are plugging into the Guardian/youth worker/ Spike Lee narrative about the significance of missing fathers....

If single mothers were respected and supported in what they do it would be a different narrative....possibly based more on
male role models having to prove their worth...rather than being feed as significant regardless.

Of course society should support single mothers, as they need the most help since they are bringing up children on their own. But that doesn't mean that male role models aren't important for young boys. The gangs plug into the missing fathers because they act as substitutes and substitute families, where the gang members will do anything for their homies as part of the gang that protects them.