The London Riots: The Elephant in the Room

If young women are leaving education with significantly higher grades (on average) then they are not in exactly the same position, are they? This seems relatively straightforward.

(I could also wonder as to the predominance of single mothers as opposed to single fathers within the average age group of the rioters. I doubt a single parent has time to riot.)

Do you disagree that education is an issue here Sal? Are you saying that our education system is perfectly adequate? Do you think that there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that boys in particular are failing to achieve a grade that we, as a society, can be happy with? As you've been so kind as to honour my post, perhaps you'd be good enough to answer these questions.

I do not buy the testosterone idea. I know that many put far more importance on hormonal differences between women and men...but I remain unconvinced.

..I think that the reason we see more (but not a majority) of girls /women is that there is a street subculture where female violence is acceptable (bit still a very small minority)..

The combination of the construction of masculinity as aggressive/ risk taking combined with rampant consumerism for me are some of the aspects that need interrogating.:.

.... and it is probably worth investigating/interviewing those in similar situations who did not riot to find out what the differentiating factors were.

Young women are in exactly the same position as young men viz jobs, the future, poverty etc.

And with some notable exceptions, they are not rioting.

So is it really all just down to testosterone?

What about the young men who have just as much testosterone as the rioters and are in the same position viz jobs, future etc., and haven't gone rioting?

Don't tell me Jenny - it's the feminization of the education system
that has led to this.

Yes, they are irresponsible and immoral morons. No, this isn't really a protest, but rather an underclass of thrill-seekers intent on anarchy. However, the reason this underclass exists and the reason they don't feel any responsibility is because they have no power, no future and no reason to act in accordance with the way society wants them to. To my mind this starts with education and schools have been failing young men in particular for thirty years.

The other interesting thing is, why are all of the protective vigilante groups mainly men? I think it's pretty obvious too. It all boils down to nature.

It would be interesting to know how many women take part in the Pamplona bull runs. My guess is it will be a very small percentage.

It's the same as the bull in the china shop or the bull in the Pamplona runs.

No one mentions it because it is obvious. It is nature, it is testosterone and hormones. Men are on the whole more aggressive and risk taking. It's just like the young bull elephant in the room is more likely to go wild and trample things down. It's just the law of nature.

quite possibly more girls than boys pictured here

This is the proudest day of my life!

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It's the evil rise of feminism that has led to all those lovelylovely menz leaving their awful, harridan equality-demanding wives after the babies are born. The offspring are then raised as feckless and feral - what other future for the progeny of a feminist-thinking dragon? That's why we're in this godawful mess.

Here endeth my thesis.

Actually herbex I'm just surprised that we've gotten to four pages without someone blaming it all on the evil rise of feminism. I'm sure it's our fault somehow!

The gang culture is renouned for wide spread misogonising of woman so it surprises me so many young girls where involved, more so in london than Manchester I must admit, but the trouble makers in manchester seem to be older anyway in london the over all age of trouble makers seems much younger and the age that seems to be represented of young girls seems to be very much young teen girls. I dont honestly think it is the elephant in the room, I think its a relevent observation and discussion point and dont think you have over used the term. It is important to open the lines of discussion on what is happening and provoke thought proccess away from "ferrol Rats" as a social and political debate must be encouraged.

It was definitely Mrs Verdi's fault. No question.

Lucrezia, those feckless single mothers also raised daughters so why do you think it is more likely that their sons will be rioting on the streets, rather than their daughters?

It's amazing that a discussion about the riots and how much more likely it is that men will riot than women will, has been seen by some as an opportunity to attack single mothers, isn't it?

If I start a thread about Verdi's contribution to Italian nationalism, or the Ancient Egyptian religious worship of the sun-god, will someone be able to see a getting-a-dig-at-single-mothers-angle?

I also wondered whether men are more likely to get into a "pack" mentality than women/girls? I suppose boys are more likely than girls to play team sports, particularly the more active ones (football, rugby) and perhaps more likely to be tribal in things like football supporting too? As well as gangs obviously, which are still more common among men even if some girl gangs do exist.

Whereas maybe women are on average less likely to "run with a pack", maybe spending more time with smaller numbers of close friends or family and doing different types of activities (and less physical group activities in particular?); so they may not be so used to enjoying that feeling, because they haven't experienced it so much (or just don't enjoy it as much)? This reminds me of when I went biking a few times with a group of male friends, the feeling of whooshing along together in a gang was quite exciting (like in ET!) but I can't remember ever experiencing anything similar in a group of women.

In which case, it might be that men are more likely to have a "posse mentality" and to get exhilarated by the thrill of running with a mob, and end up egging each other on and getting carried away through their numbers into doing things they would never have done on their own?

Just a thought...

I'm not going to directly engage with IM22 either because he's an anti-feminist poster who I don't feel like bothering with, but for any lurkers out there, what is never counted in the official figures, are the numbers of women who become SAHMs because of the recession, but who would like to work but are not counted as unemployed as they are deemed "economically inactive", seeing as how raising children and enabling other adults to work instead of doing their own childcare, is economically worthless...

Another one who got beaten up by a girl gang here (20 years ago, nothing to do with the current situation), so I have no illusions about it being only men who are violent.
But I do think that in some ways this fucking mess is a gift to the powerful (whether or not there has been some secret agenda-pushing behind the scenes) in terms of it being a great excuse to crack down harder on the poor, the disadvantaged and the marginalised.

After8 - yes, testosterone increases by about 400% in 14 yo boys.

That's a helluva hormonal change. Boys without solid male guidance are going to find male role models somewhere - either from a good father or a bad gang.

Has anyone read Raising Boys? Remember that story of the guy who hitched a lift with male youth gang-types in LA?

Some interesting comments in here from a psychologist about what can lead people to do this stuff (including some bits about gender).

BBC website also said the people in court today had all been males and mostly in their 20s.

There was also another quote I saw somewhere on their site earlier, I think it was another psychologist (or same one perhaps, but in a different article) who mentioned something about (aggressive?) masculinity but I can't find the quote now!

Issy, I am so for you wrt your story about being attacked. What a horrible, shameful thing to do to somebody. Were any of them ever caught?

Did anyone hear PM this evening? Of those who have been charged (only 30 or so out of the hundreds arrested, so not representative) all were male, most were black, and many were educated with good - even professional jobs.

It will be interesting to see the makeup of the rest of the thugs, but based on this motley sample the OP has so far been supported.

Also, to tackle another elephant in this overcrowded room I echo the sentiment of that black woman in Hackney who was filmed shouting at the thugs: (some) black people need to get a grip of themselves, take responsibility for their lives and stop fulfilling the stereotype that blacks are violent criminals. Like it or not (and I do not like it, but it is a fact), when an ethnic group is in the minority, individuals are judged to be representative of the whole.

As for the educated people with good jobs, wtf? Morons.