"No thanks, I've got a boyfriend"... part deux

Yes I grew up in mainstream culture. Have only in last couple of weeks started reading the feminist board. I'm so used to accepting certain (bad) behaviour off men as are most women I know.
I find it a bit difficult to understand some of the terms etc used on the threads - but then this is true of Mumsnet in general as in some posters are very educated & I get lost reading their posts.

I do find it hard to articulate what I'm trying to say in my posts. And I'm far more literate than most women I mix with who never even read newspapers.

oh hi, annie, yes you misunderstood. I'm saying I don't know why certain women do get hit on more than others. I mean I've seen women who are pretty & wearing tiny dresses not get bothered at all in the same bar as women dressed the same who are getting hit on a lot.

And I go wherever I like, so do my friends but some of us don't get hit on while others get hit on all the time (see above). Ironically it's the women I'm with who don't want to be chatted up who seem to get bothered the most.
Why is that?

I wonder how many of us on this board did grow up in un-mainstream culture, which shaped our views of interaction between men and women. Although I was certainly feminist from a young age, it wasn't until I was a lot older than I realised I was in anything like a minority.

I doubt if Jeremy Irons is part of the 'puking in gutters culture'.

And the thing is, those men, who were respectful of women, were fine with gay people - got hot girlfriends! Like me! While the 'lads' thought they were gay! They could be very 'manly' too, in their way. It can work, the lad culture just don't get it.

I agree - men need education, as I've said. My ex strongly believes this, and I agree with his methodology and advice. For some men it's an instinctive respect, great. For others, possibly the most effective first part of their education is that hassling women who are not interested - who haven't even given you a signal - is NOT effective.

Well, then I'm sure you know what I mean when I say that I'm not inclined to make allowances for men who don't respect women. Guys in rock clubs didn't spring from a vacuum, and they're not magically different to their peers in mainstream clubs; they choose not to act that way. They choose to affiliate themselves with a subculture that - although the lyrics can be misogynistic, just like music of every other genre - generally respects women's bodily autonomy.

If they can do it then so can everyone else.

I know what you mean Victor! My youth was all about rock and goth clubs and the men there respected the women completely - it's a highly-prized part of belonging to that group/sub-culture, and women could wear as little as they want. If only the rest of society acted like that.

I still only go to clubs that are 'alternative' in some way - the scene has split in many directions - and still women get treated with proper respect - unless some 'lads' manage to get in.

swallowedafly, I don't actually care if people think I am a misogynist troll- but I do find it unacceptable (as do mn) when people toss the 'troll' word about and I found what I perceived to be the blatant bullying that followed as bad as you claim to find some men who persist with women. I see no difference in this bullying of me and their behaviour.

I also don't feel bad that severin agrees with me (he does on certain issues) He may be a misogynist troll, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day (to quote 'I' in Withnail).

We do differ; he thinks that insults should be accepted in part of life, I don't. Insults should be challenged.

But you actually will not accept that I am anti-abuse of women, anti-threats, anti-rape and that in real life, I do get involved if I see a woman being sworn at by a man in an aggressive fashion. I do go over and ask if she is OK. I

But, I'm sensible about it, you see, if all the idiot is doing is persistently asking her for a drink but NOT being aggressive or threatening, or touching her a la Jeremy irons, I don't get involved.

I appreciate what you're saying, Vixaxn, but those of us who occupy spaces that aren't so mainstream don't find it to be the case that sexy clothing says anything in particular. For example, I'd never been to a mainstream nightclub until I was about 22. Before that, I'd hung out in rock and goth places where women (and men) frequently wear very little. I remember one woman who was only ever seen in g-string, bra, fishnet tights and DM boots; other women would wear PVC dresses split right up the back and no underwear. Some men would wear pairs of chaps and thongs.

No-one ever touched them. It just wasn't the done thing. I'm sure they got chatted up, and there was plenty of sex going on in the toilets, but the community would not tolerate any pushy behaviour. Anyone who did display such behaviour was quickly got a reputation and would be banned in future.

It was so bloody weird going to 'mainstream' clubs and seeing women, who to my eyes were wearing quite a lot, have to deal with all this unwanted attention. It's not 'normal' for men to do this - a lot of us, women and men, have fallen through the rabbit hole and been in communities where hassling, pushing and intimidating is not normal behaviour.

It's wrong, but I think wearing a skirt or 'sexy' clothes makes men think you are available. Women should be free to wear whatever they want, and men should be taught not to expect every women in a nice dress is looking for attention. I do think men need more education, from the right sources ie not pick-up artists - as their magazines tend not to focus on this stuff at all - which is detrimental to their chances of meeting a nice or even willing for a one-night stand woman, and would stop women being hassled by men who have heard little more than 'you have to be persistent.'

My ex teaches good tips IMO - how to be a charming, high-status man capable of 'flirting' women will find attractive - and that shouldn't be accomplished with fakery but by actually becoming" one of those men.

*I don't like that word, but too many men try to go under the radar and disguise sexual/romantic interests with 'just being friendly' which makes it harder for women to judge his true intentions - and that 'going under the radar' doesn't work anyway. When you reveal you are interested in more than friendship the woman will run a mile and feel deceived.

Vixaxn - this is the thing: yes some women do get hit on if they're not with a man. But I don't get hit on, even when I go to my local sports bar after the gym to have a coke & read a magazine. I chat to a couple of the barmen because I know them but I don't get 'hit on', ever. I'm not ugly & I wear nice clothes, I'm friendly & approachable to people (well, old ladies chat to me a lot!). I don't think I look off-puttingly desperate..Also in other places guys don't hit on me. If I'm sat near a group of older men then they'll include me in their conversation but men seem to think I'm 'sweet' rather than anything else.

My sister & her friends get hit on all the time as they dress in revealing clothes even at work; my married friends don't get hit on as they never go out on their own with other women at night & would never go out alone at any time (god knows why!).
I'm not saying I want to get pestered by lots of men but I would like to know why some women do get bothered a lot but I don't.

Men do need to be taught how to approach women properly. And my ex-bf actually does this via an advice site. He would advise

Only approach a 'strange' woman if you get clear signals. And if you get a clear signal they are not actually interested, remove yourself politely... they may change their minds and talk to you later when they liked how you handled it. Either way, don't waste your time, don't hassle women, and don't get a poor reputation by handling rejection badly and especially not abusively.

I agree that it's annoying to be hit on all the time when you are not with a man, but saying 'I've got a boyfriend' does work best, so I don't see what's the problem with a little lie if it works. I know men who do the same thing to the rare women that approach, they mention a gf and the girl gets the message. Most of the time. Some people are drunk or bad at rejection.

I am also reminded of celebrities who get unwanted attention all the time. many will chat for a few minutes, pose for a photo even, but some people do not respect their personal space, and they can't use the 'I've got a bf/gf line.' I hear sometimes they do have to be direct, and the person goes away thinking or saying they are rude. It's harder for them in some ways because they have an image to keep up. The general public can be very annoying!

sorry Sardine Queen, was busy, TOWIE is 'the only way is Essex' - by TOWIE style men I mean the rich over-groomed types who are shallow & arrogant. Some of the bars in my town are full of them. They can be quite rude & demeaning to women who they don't fancy. They won't take no for an answer from women who they do fancy as it hurts their pride. That's why I prefer more down to earth men who are decent & polite (happily a lot do exist!).
Jeremy Irons - urgh imagine having an ugly old man like that putting his hand on anywhere uninvited...doesn't it occur to him that a some women may have low confidence or anxiety issues & NOT be able to deal very well with a man putting his hand on her bottom? But I doubt that men like him would actually care about that!!

"dan made the video, jamez is his mate from a woman-haters forum. There's another one called dadaz who pops up now and then.
I thought dan was also jennyvtheworld, who seems to have disappeared."

So everyone who posts an alternative view is a troll from a women-hating forum?

Clearly didn't actually read my posts did you - just put me in your little box marked 'people who don't agree with me and are therefore deluded morons.'

Very open-minded of you.

Wamster, apologies for calling you a sock puppet. Out of curiosity, (and this isn't with the intention of another row) can you see the similarity between your posts and severins, which lead to the conclusion it did? Again, I apologise in my part of calling you a sock-puppet.

doesn't mean I agree with all your views, though

That Jeremy Irons article is a bit sickening. Why would you feel the need to put your hands on a woman without her permission anyway? Really? Does your wife approve of this, Mr Irons?