"No thanks, I've got a boyfriend"... part deux

One thing that has come out of this thread is the idea that women are entitled to treat men who cross verbal boundaries as if they are likely to cross physical ones.

With this in mind, I am going to do a complete U turn and say the analogy with feelings of anxiety about being mugged by young black men is a very useful one.

But you have to tweak it a little bit to represent the gendered violence and harassment that women get from men in general.

So at least once a week, a young black man will do one of the following to you:

Lightly slap you across the face- but not beat you up;
Have a good look inside your handbag- he's only looking, not taking, what harm does it do?;
Lean out of a van window and yell "I'm going to steal your iPod"- his mates all think this is a real laugh and some of your friends tell you that you should lighten up and be pleased that he wants to steal your iPod. If you knew him, you might well give him one for his birthday;
A group of them might repeatedly take your mug, stapler and other personal items from your desk at work- have you no sense of humour, they're only having a laugh;
You or at least one of your friends got mugged by a young black man who they had known as a friend for a while- but you/she did invite him in for coffee after he walked you/her home from that party, so what do you expect.

But all those men apart from the last one are not actually muggers, and will never mug you, you know?

You might think that you would have good reason not to trust young, black men if they behaved in such a way. You count yourself lucky that you know enough of the good ones well so that you can trust they would never do any of these things, but sadly, some you thought you knew well might still do look at maps to see where the best place to go mugging is. Not that they would ever go, you understand.

Anyone else feel more outraged at the thought of such a blatant assault on our physical property than we do at assaults on our physical integrity?

SAF I'm clearly not referring to those of you who said that then am I? Of course I see the difference, but Kallisa said 'all men who are not relatives' and not 'any men who won't take no for an answer' as you have it in your scenario... Different things!

It depends on the criteria thistledew - if you're saying 'made to feel uncomfortable' then the probability will indeed be higher than assaulted.

I would also suggest that your idea that society teaches men to feel entitled is too broad a statement. Who are these teachers to whom you refer? I'm on record as hating Zoo and Nuts for this very reason, btw, but I think this is part of how we write some young working class men off as being incapable of anything beyond football, beer and oggling women. I'm not sure this is true of men as a whole, though.

Isn't it a question of probabilities jenny?

Despite living in London, only very few of my friends have been mugged or assaulted by a black person. Most people, applying intelligence and reason to seeing a group of young black youths on the corner of the street would remind themselves that the probability of being mugged by them is quite small.

However, the majority of my female friends have, at some point or several points in their lives been made to feel uncomfortable, upset or frightened by men (of every colour) infringing their personal boundaries or acting in an entitled way.

If we lived in a society where young black men were encouraged to demonstrate entitled behaviour and go around mugging people with impunity, it might be a more useful comparator.

If anyone is being 'very careful' with their male friends then it isn't much of a friendship is it?

I go back to a my point in the last thread. If I gave you some anecdotes of black men being muggers and then warned you all to be very careful in the presence of black men, I should hope that you would feel that something might be wrong with this. Whilst I'm not querying the very good intentions of Kallista's 'safety first' point - or indeed the wealth of evidence of such situations - no one seems troubled by it.

Very true!

Krikri... your friend should definitely have strong words with this guy and threaten reporting him. This will undoubtedly be against any reasonable place of work's code of conduct and she should not have to dread going into work.

Wamster I'm now genuinely confused. If I was 'lucky' with the internet guy, then there is an inherent risk with interacting with men? And therefore women have to act as risk assessors? I totally agree that that is the case in many contexts - but I don't think that the onus should be on the woman alone. I think men should take responsibility for not imitating rapist behaviour.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I think you were urging for women not to judge men too harshly on first meetings. So when do we judge them? Genuine question. If internet guy could have been pretending, and so he shouldn't have stayed, but another pushy guy shoudn't be judged too harshly, then I'm a bit confused.

I know there are those of you who would disagree but I will warn any woman to be careful if they are alone with a man who isn't related - whether he is a friend, colleague or date. You are not 'asking for it' by being alone with a man - but you are very vulnerable if he has bad intentions.
One man I was dating invited me to watch a DVD - I was naive & didn't expect him to try it on as I honestly hadn't given those signals. I don't want to go into detail but it was a bad experience & I was lucky I didn't get seriously hurt. Another time I'd been out with a group of female & male friends (all in our early 20s) - they ended up sleeping in my flat, then one of my male friends who was in my bed tried it on - I had to push him out as he was drunk & wouldn't stop - but I was too embarrassed to tell anyone else. I hadn't realised that he fancied me.
The worst time was when I went to see a colleague I'd known for a few months. He invited me for coffee & a chat. No-one else knew where I was. I was sat there in my coat still, finishing my coffee & had just enjoyed a good conversation. I told him I needed to go home, & he stood up, saying, 'the doors are locked so you can't leave'. He changed into something I didn't recognise & it was so scary - I managed to get away - I should have told the police but there was no point. I told a friend who knew him but she didn't believe me as he honestly was a different person at work. My mum blamed me, saying I that any woman who goes to a man's home should know what to expect.

After these experiences & hearing about similar experiences my sister & some friends have had - I really do warn other women to just be careful.

There is a lot to be said in trusting the first impression you get of someone. Of the top of my head two examples spring to mind of times when my first instinct was that a man was a complete prick, but I was convinced to push those thoughts to one side and to become 'friends'. In both instances my instincts were proven right within a year.

In my experience, it is rare that someone (male or female) will behave badly as a complete one-off. As is so often said on the relationship boards, if someone tells or shows you what sort person they are, take them seriously.

Women are socialised to value group cohesiveness and to be inclusive in their relationships. Men are never called 'bitchy' for excluding people from their social circle.

Interestingly, I've just had an email from a dear friend who is dealing with just such a situation - at work. She was transferred about a month ago to a different department and is working in the same office as this guy who started out just being "overly friendly" but incrementally has got more intrusive, getting too close in conversation, asking her out and telling her to ditch her boyfriend for him. She's tried brushing it off, but she wonders if she needs to say something to her manager. She's already tried laughing it off, then saying she's not interested, then ignoring him, but nothing has got him to stop. We're not talking youngsters in a nightclub here. They are both about the 50 mark working for a large public sector organisation. She's mature, astute, confident and professional, but this is really getting her down. Sucks.

Wamster, last time I checked it was my prerogative to decide who I date or don't date. And men should respect that if a woman says no once, she probably won't change her mind.

And of course it brings comfort - the knowledge that the person did not have the right to behave like that brings far more notion than the idea that it was somehow MY fault for letting him in/showing too much leg/not covering my face.

It is a comfort because unlike the above, the blame is firmly on the perpetrator.

Why not write someone off in one viewing?

If you don't like their behavior when they are trying to impress you, why on EARTH would you like their behavior six months in>?

Pushy people are not 'nice guys' who get a bit too enthusiastic. They are people who think that their's is the only opinion that counts. They are pushing because they think that you don't have the right to an opinion of your own, and they are just waiting until they manage to turn it into their opinion.

Why would anyone give someone like that a chance? I don't want to be contantly steamrollered into doing things that I have already said I do not wish to do. I do not want my relationship to be a constant battle to be heard. If someone behaves like that on a first date, that is the sort of person he is. And he's out.

Oh, absolutely agree, with you colditz , but that is no good when you've actually been attacked, that knowledge that you are in the right- WHICH YOU ARE guys should control themselves- brings no comfort.

That persistent guy who asked you out a few times (stress not abusive or violent or rude) may turn out to be a nice guy after all, whereas the guy who seemed all nice and non-pushy and yes, got a lot of female friends who think he is really nice, may turn out to be the guy who chucks stuff at you and cheats.

Not directed to anybody here in particular but don't write somebody off straight away on one viewing. As long as they're not rude or abusive or violent, of course.

he could have been an unpleasant guy - but the onus is on men to control their behavior, not upon women to 'be careful.'

OK, then I accept that my interpretation of should not was incorrect, I apologise; you were lucky, though, with that internet guy. You can't always tell what someone is like after a few hours, and he could have been an unpleasant guy who was good at hiding it.

Oh, forgot to finish. None of them pushed it. None of them tried to kiss me. It is totally possible for men and women to co-exist this way, if both of them work together. I'm probably a bit too much of an optimist but it's certainly been the case in my life.

Honestly, Wamster, I think you're focusing on the wrong bit. I said it 'shouldn't' be any different with a work colleague or someone I'd just met. Of course it probably would be. I wish it were different.

But, I have to say, I have shared beds with men I've just met. My bed isn't in a nightclub, or a bar (although sometimes I wish it was!). I also don't tend to meet total strangers in my living room. There is quite a stage inbetween meeting someone, inviting them back, having coffee, drinking some more, realising it's really goddam late, and letting them crash. It's always been established that sex is not an option (unless, of course, it was, in which case THAT had usually been established waaaaay before this stage). The bed means sleep, nothing else.

There was even a guy who I met on the internet. He came over, we got drunk, we chatted and didn't realise the time so no train, he stayed. The conversation was had. If he'd been pushy, or exhibited any of the signals we've discussed at length in this thread, then no, he wouldn't have stayed. I would have felt really bad about condemning him to a night at the station or a 50-mile taxi ride but safety first.

Glad to hear it, SAF! I know I shouldn't let the anti-feminist stuff get to me but there was a lot of it on the previous thread and sometimes it's good to think back and think yes, I'm not a humourless freak. I've got good friends of both sexes, who I can grab and hug and get pissed with and fall over with and collapse into bed with and all that stuff because we respect one another and don't pay any attention to constructions of gender. And all I really want to do is spread that around a bit!

Just responding to the comment by VictorGollancz that it shouldn't be any different to share a bed with a man she just met (as opposed to male friends).
Of course it is different.

I mean who is to know how a stranger will react if you invite them to your bed? They will probably make a pass of some kind, heck, nobody would consider them beasts for it, and , yes, if you say ' no I don't want it' they should respect that, absolutely they should respect that.
But nobody in their right mind thinks that it is OK to just invite a stranger to bed with them, on grounds of what they think should happen in a politically correct perfect world where we all love and respect each other.
You don't invite a stranger to bed with you and expect them not to make a pass at you and for it just to be friendly.

This thread is about inappropriate male behaviour, is it not? And I could easily imagine that a few women here would think a man dreadful if he made a pass at her in this way. which given the circumstances, i.e. stranger just met him, invited him to bed, I would find it very, very hard to find fault with the man for making a pass. I'd only find fault if he didn't stop when the women told him she was not interested.