"No thanks, I've got a boyfriend"... part deux

It's easy to get confused.

I really don't know what you are talking about, now, I thought you were abbreviated to 'SAF'? .

Whatever, though, I haven't been on this thread for over a day yet you have been here since I was last here so why are you now picking up on something I said previously? Makes no sense.

swallowedafly, my response is towards sardinequeen who said words along the lines that persistent men had not been a problem for me. They have been a problem for me- an irritant more than a problem, though.

SAF What? That doesn't even qualify as splitting hairs!! "It was the office, but it wasn't the office, it was analogous to the office, but was actually just a workplace (which would include an office for xx% of us, of course, but whatever)". Clear as mud.

So, yes, I agree that men shouldn't really persist in asking a woman out when she says 'no' and that they are irritating- but, unless they appear abusive or I fear that they might become abusive -instincts and all that, it still is no big a deal to me.

I think this is where the continuum idea of persistence leading to assault falls apart from me actually; when the penny dropped that he was not going to get anywhere, it was late, we were alone (by default not planned), had a few drinks and all the rest- for an abusive male, this would be the 'perfect' time to make an assault. Did this guy assault me? No. So, in my experience, persistence does not always lead to abusiveness.

SardineQueen, I have had a problem with persistent males.
One guy used to ask me to go on a date with him ( I knew him from the local pub) . I said that I was not really interested in going out with him at that time.

He then used to make mix tapes for me which he would give me as gifts. He'd say, 'I've made you these. Hope you like them'.

He continued to ask me out. Until I got very firm with him one day and said, 'look, you may think this is a bit romantic but I am never going to go out with you'. How did he react? Did he become abusive- verbally or physically? Was I frightened by him? No to all.
He just said that he was trying to woo me, it had failed and was upset but accepted it was my decision. He left and that was the last of it.

So, yes, this guy irritated me, but I don't see him as a bad, abusive guy.

If he had- at ANY point- intimidated me, or become abusive, yes, I'd be saying how horrible he was here.

But there is a difference between a man trying to 'woo' a woman who GENUINELY means no harm at all but nevertheless may be an irritant and one that becomes a complete pig when the penny finally drops that the woman is not interested.
The first is irritating- can't deny it, the second is altogether more dangerous.

Night all!

I'm not confused thank you . Yes, leery stares abound, but light slaps around the face? No, just too much... Oh, in certain clubs, groping goes on for sure. But I thought we were talking more generally? Dear old Orangehat used to berate me for talking about clubs and meat-markets...

All clubs have certain personas though, don't they, and there are plenty of women who willingly frequent the meat-markets and would be disappointed if they didn't get attention - much as that might make the rest of us cringe.

You put this into the office though Thistle and that's why it didn't work. When did you genuinely hear of someone getting their boobs groped in the office (without dire consequences)?

I can see your confusion jenny. You thought I said that my list of thing would all happen once a week, whereas I said that one of the things from the list would happen once a week.

I was not setting out an exact science, and it would still be extreme if it happened once a month, but sadly I have to say that it is rare that a week goes by when I don't at least get one of those leery, undressing you stares.

People's experiences are different, is the point. Everyone's experiences are true and factual of themselves, and will have formed their views. Wamster has never had a problem. Great. Kallista has had a lot and it has understandably made her less relaxed.Fine. Both are true. However Wamster's experience should be the one for all, meanwhile too many women and girls end up in situations like Kallista. That is the point of what we are discussing here. the prevalence differs, depending on lots of factors, but persistent men are a fact of life generally, and what can we do about that is a good question. I want to aim for a point where most women can say "this doesn't sound familiar at all" and away from a point where women say don't be alone with men who arent family

I dunno Jenny, I encountered this type of behaviour when I was younger and I went out a lot, and someone not taking no for an answer and buggering off when I asked them to happened about weekly, I would say. Sometimes more than once in one night.

I think that it is worse when you are young. And worse (as a matter of basic maths) if you go out an awful lot.

Yes Thistledew... thank you The reason I say they don't work is because the vast majority of women do not have their bums and boobs groped on a weekly basis. Nor do they recieve sexual harrassment (that as is as stressful as having personal items repeatedly hidden) on a weekly basis. To say that they do and that I am naive will be a natural comeback, I'm sure, but is disingenuous.

Besides which, this still suggests bad behaviour and, as SQ has kindly picked up, I am not talking about people behaving badly whom we all agree are knobs.

Kallista sorry that came out harsher than I meant. Of course your experiences will colour your views. But honestly most men are not like that.

Sorry for sounding so insensitive.

I think thistledew's analogies are quite reasonable.

However I also think that Jenny's point is correct about Kallista's post. The idea that women should be wary of any man who isn't related - is also wrong.

Kallista I am so sorry that you have had those terrifying experiences. But you can't let it colour your view of all men.

I have had some bad experiences too.. But I spent a large part of my youth in situations where men could have "taken advantage" or whatever and 99% of them didn't. IME the vast majority of men are decent. Some are not. Basing your life as if they are all like that 1% (5%?) of bastards will mean that you don't get to enjoy the genuine friendship of the majority of men who are reasonable and kind.

SO I kind of agree with everyone... (its late)

sorry wams

No, you just don't get them .

Slap across the face = minor version of violence prior to mugging = grope of breasts or bum.
Stealing stuff at work = sexual harassment at work. I suppose you could tone it down to only talking about taking your stuff.

And if you don't get the reference to being mugged by the friend who walked you home, then I really am wasting my time trying to explain .

Also- I think my point is made that you would say that these are examples of 'actual' abuse, but the things to which I am making the analogy are not.

They're not too hard to get, they don't work Quite funny though, s'pose.

Yes, men who do this are bad and arrogant people. I think we are all agreed on this aren't we? (Ok, maybe not you Warmster )

I will add one more example, if the others are too hard to get.

A young black man comes up to you in a bar and says:

"Give me your iPod"
"Go on, you know you want to give me your iPod"
"Don't tell me to go away, I know you want to give me your iPod"
"You would like it if you give me your iPod, the feeling of generosity is really great"
"You are missing out not giving me your iPod"
"If we were good friends you would want to give me your iPod"
"You are such a stuck up bitch, it's only an iPod. Who do you think you are keeping it to yourself".

At least once a week you or one of your friends is sexually assaulted by a friend that you invited into your house? I'd suggest you move areas.

A clever reworking but actually the eyeing up the handbag and the leaning out of the van and thinking it's funny are the only ones that actually work. Again though, you are changing the scenario into one where an actual element of dodgy behaviour has taken place, whereas Kallista's point is that you should be very careful with all men regardless of behaviour.

I've never said that it is excusable to behave in the way described in the OP.