Should I feel guilty for enjoying degrading sex?

Right, I'm going back on holiday now, because this obviously isn't good for my blood pressure.

I'd like to leave a question/questions behind:

Why is it OK for men to enact sexually degrading and/or sadistic acts on women and our bodies? Do a relationship, privacy and "consent" actually justify this kind of male behaviour? If so how? Why are those three things more important than ending male violence and sexual harm towards women? If a woman says she enjoys it does that remove any moral responsibility from the man invovled not to behave in this manner? Again if yes, why?

Because in a feminist context I cannot see any justification for men acting in sadistic or sexually degrading ways towards women, and I don't understand why people can find reasons that this sort of behaviour by men towards women can be justified. Orgasms just aren't that important in the scheme of things.

Malificence you are completely ignoring the system of male domination and illegitimate power that we all live in, when you're talking about female sexual submission.

I'll be happy to have no opinion about these practices the day after rape has stopped, sexual assault has stopped, sexual abuse of women and girls has stopped, and the day that women are no longer oppressed within patriarchy. Until that happens female sexual submission and male sexual domination and sadism exist within that system and reinforce it. As feminists it is unbelievable to think that it's OK to ignore that fact.

I'm also really surprised or maybe not very surprised at all that no-one has had a word to say about the fact that Georgia only experiences her sexual enjoyment vicariously through her partner. As long as he's getting off and says he doens't mean to degrade her it's all fine is it?

Fine by me Vixaxn. Posts like yours were one of the reasons I've been on a break from here.

It's disgraceful the way feminism is being shoved out of this place and we're supposed to roll over and tolerate it.

"I didn't agree with your answer. Allowed, correct?"

You didn't disagree, you tried to pretend that what I said was irrelevant to the conversation. Or have you forgotten already saying this:

"You could talk about that, but how is it relevant"

It's amazing how often people making anti-woman arguments don't argue on the point but just resort to undermining tactics.

"Vixaxn, can you even follow your own argument. You were the one asking questions about how did society encourage men to be sexually sadistic. If you don't like the answer don't ask the question. But don't pretend what I said was irrelevant. It was a direct answer to your question."

I didn't agree with your answer. Allowed, correct?

"The dishonest way of arguing is astonishing. But hten you are the one saying on another thread that you think a woman wearing a skirt means that men think she's sexual available. Hahahahahahaha."

I am not arguing dishonestly, and am not disrespting your views so please don't disrespect mine. And don't take things I said out of context from another thread please. I was answering a question, and in no way condoning that certain men view sexily dressed women as available. You are resorting to a childish way of debating if I may say so.

"We're not allowed to say that people are trolling are we. So people can come to the feminist section and spout any old misogynistic rubbish and we're supposed to accept it with ladylike grace. I really must go back on holiday."

No, I believe you are not allowed to suggest someone is trolling. So why did you just break that rule? It is unbelievable to suggest that my comments in this thread equate to trolling. It's a lame attempt to discredit me, and makes your arguments look weak. It is also very offensive to paint any of my comments as 'misogynistic rubbish.' You don't 'have to accept' anything, these are my opinions on the subject. I suspect this will be the last time I engage with you, thanks.

You started with the talk about other cultures and the harms of penetrative sex!

Neither that subject nor porn use by her partner are the issues here - getting back to the OP - of course it's not a good thing that she was drawn into using porn at a very young age, it probably shaped her views considerably, not a single person has said that was a good thing.

All that I'm really saying is that sexual submissiveness isn't inherently harmful or the result of social conditioning, otherwise all men would be sexually dominant, which they are obviously not and all women would be submissive, which they are not.

Oh and I bet Georgia is not talking about a bit of penetration when she says she enjoys "degrading sex".

But lets just pretend that it's penetrative sex that's being objected to. It's such an honest way to conduct a discussion.

"It sounds like you are anti any sort of male to female penetrative sex there Capt. ?"

In your head maybe.

My DH has never used porn, (that's not to say he's never seen it) he is not interested in it one tiny bit, neither would he set foot insdie a "sex entertainment venue" - he thinks that it's an awful industry for all concerned.

It sounds like you are anti any sort of male to female penetrative sex there Capt. ?

Did you notice that I said that sometimes conditioning doesn't have an effect ?

Even if social conditioning does shape your sexuality, that doesn't mean that it is automatically a bad thing.

To some, the very act of penetration by a man to a woman is degrading and means that a man wants to dominate a woman, I don't happen to agree with that assessment.

Yeah, and I'll base my opinions on reality Vixaxn.

Mainstream pornography is sexually sadistic and degrading to women to a horrifying extent. Sticking your head in the sand about that fact doesn't change reality.

Vixaxn, can you even follow your own argument. You were the one asking questions about how did society encourage men to be sexually sadistic. If you don't like the answer don't ask the question. But don't pretend what I said was irrelevant. It was a direct answer to your question.

The dishonest way of arguing is astonishing. But hten you are the one saying on another thread that you think a woman wearing a skirt means that men think she's sexual available. Hahahahahahaha.

We're not allowed to say that people are trolling are we. So people can come to the feminist section and spout any old misogynistic rubbish and we're supposed to accept it with ladylike grace. I really must go back on holiday.

Oh whatever. You think what you think and I'll base my opinions on what I've actually seen, ok?

I don't think you do watch mainstream porn. Mainstream porn is extremely degrading and sadistic to women. It's not a secret.

"You can also talk about other cultures where mutilated genitals of women are demanded before men will marry them, or cultures where men insist on marrying/raping girls before they are even out of puberty."

You could talk about that, but how is it relevant to the OP enjoying 'degrading' sex? Or making her feel its ok?

"I'd recommend you read Pornland mentioned above as you don't appear to have much knowledge of the actual contents of porn."

I watch a bit of mainstream porn. It is not full of choking, slapping, degrading women (calling them abusive misogynistic names), double penetrations, ATM, though those things do exist. Most mainstream porn is just two people fucking and looking like they are enjoying it.

Also the idea that there aren't sexually sadistic tendencies within men a group is risible. Given the popularity of the sex industries - use of women in porn and prostitution - and the numbers of sexual assaults and rapes that happen every year, it's clear that there is a substantial sector of the male population that is very much in favour of sexual sadism towards women.

You can also talk about other cultures where mutilated genitals of women are demanded before men will marry them, or cultures where men insist on marrying/raping girls before they are even out of puberty. Then there are all the men who insist on having penetrative sex with women in countries where the death rate in pregnancy is enormously high. Somehow that can't get in the way of intercourse though.

No sadistic pornography isn't banned. Mainstream porn is full of choking, slapping, degrading women (calling them abusive misogynistic names), double penetrations, ATM, etc etc. It's incredibly popular. I'd recommend you read Pornland mentioned above as you don't appear to have much knowledge of the actual contents of porn. Gail Dines describes it very clearly.

I've watched porn. I haven't seen many instances of the man being sadistic (though I hear that type exists, but is mostly banned now?) Dominant maybe.

Was Georgia 'trained' or did she see something that turned her on? Women's sexuality is not always PC - in fact i'd say there are far more women into bondage than men - if porn was so influential, and carries such power, and as has been said 'encourages sadistic sex, and is mostly watched by men, I'd expect more men to have developed 'sadistic' tendencies, which is not my experience.

Well we can start with - porn. Which, if you read the defenders' accounts, every man watches.

Have you ever seen any porn Vixaxn. Georgia did and it trained her that women are supposed to submit to men and be degraded by them during sex. It's a strong message.

Conditioning has lots of effects Malificence, it's amazing how many people don't want to acknowledge it though. I don't see how people can deny that we are affected by the society and culture around us.

How does society encourage men to be sexually sadistic? If anything IME - and I'm sure there are exceptions - men start off quite gentle during their sexual lives and realise many women find that a bit dull and want them to be a bit more dominant - I don't know about sadistic, but many women don't like it all gentle and want a good hard seeing to by a man who knows what he's doing. Find a partner who is on the same wavelength, if he likes tantric sex and you are into bondage, you are not sexually compatible. Plenty more fish in the sea.

At the risk of asking "what about the menz" - there are a lot of men who like to be sexually dominated and "degraded" , is that perfectly ok from a feminist viewpoint?

Actually, I'm just as happy "switching" with my DH and being the dominant one for sex, as it happens, we had a very vanilla sex life for 20+ years until I suggested exploring different things too.
We are absolute equals in our marriage, in fact I'm the dominant one when it comes to finances/decision making etc.

Perhaps being sexually dominant is his way of reinforcing his "male power" because he feels emasculated by my strength of character? or perhaps the fact that he has a female boss means that he needs to take his resentment out on me?

Sometimes, just sometimes, conditioning doesn't have an effect and there are no ulterior motives for what people enjoy in the bedroom.

Society's conditioning is actually that women should be sexually masochistic - "good" women are supposed to submit to their approved male partner. Similarly society encourages men to be sexually sadistic. These two people are playing their assigned stereotyped roles. A woman being submissive and sexually masochistic is threatening nothing, challening nothing. A man being sexually dominant and/or sexually sadistic is helping to reinforce and uphold illegitimate male power.

Did feminist analysis take a summer break too?

(The reason I'm not back for good is that apparently I still can't help myself getting really pissed off about this kind of stuff, especially its unthinking acceptance by women posting in the feminist section of all places).

"You enjoy it.
Your bf enjoys it.
No need to feel guilty."

This. Why are you worried? perhaps its that you think it makes you a bad girl? it doesn't. Forget societys conditioning about what 'good girls' should enjoy and do what turns you on. You are not alone by a long shot, it's just a kinky game, right?

I would say that's is a problem if it's the only way you can enjoy sex, that does sound like conditioning. You are severely limiting your enjoyment for one thing, great sex should encompass a myriad of experiences imho.
I like a bit of spanking and (fairly mild) domination myself but I would be very worried if it was the only thing that got me going because it's not healthy when it's that intense, it seems more of a compulsion than actual enjoyable sex.
As others have said, degradation is a subjective term - to some , spanking would be degrading, the things I see as degrading and therefore unenjoyable , like being spat on or called humiliating names, are huge turn-ons for some people.
How about some psycho-sexual counselling to work through these issues, there must be something niggling away at you to have posted this?

What would happen if you met someone else if/when your current relationship ends? They may not be comfortable. I am not sure you sound happy with it at all but am not au fait with this whole thing so obviously have no advice based on experience.