Separatist Feminism - Thread Two

Interesting point Saf. You explain what I feel. At times I resent the effect having children has had on my career. But I don't resent them or regret having them (in fact, despite the poverty we have landed in as a result, they are easily the best thing I have ever done with my life). I often indulge in 'what if' scenarios in my head, where I play with ways my life could go if I were suddenly absolved of all responsibility for my DC but as this is never going to happen (short of the unthinkable) I get on with the life I have rather than the one that might have been, and despite the money issues it's a good life.

I love my DC, I enjoy spending time with them, the thought of long, enforced separations from them is painful. However, I would like more time to myself away from my DC. I wouldn't want to live in a separatist community where children were excluded, but even in one where DC are included I would hope that women could co-operate over childcare to allow child-free spaces. I think they're important for our sanity.

Many men in a traditional family set-up have this set-up anyway, don't they. They live with their DC and can be as hands-on or off as they like because their wives are providing them with the opportunity to go child-free (by taking the DC out while he has a lie-in on a saturday morning, or looking after the DC so he can fulfil his hobby). If he's a decent man, he returns the favour of course, but both research and anecdotal evidence just here on MN strongly suggests this is in the minority rather than the norm. In our separatist community wouldn't women simply be doing this among themselves and for mutual advantage and appreciation, rather than the rather unequal arrangement that currently exists between most men and women?

....SAF interesting point.but is that exactly the problem that feminism can articulate, advocate for changes in policy, sentencing lawfully etc..and that can take you pretty far,

but actually women will always be (literally) left holding the baby....in a seperatist space or not unless men themselves decide that the situation you describe is unacceptable.

Men have to themselves have step up and say, 'not in my name' ....it is not acceptable that we are perpetuators of the most violence, abuse, rape etc...feminism can take it so far,and has actually made significant progress, but we are still in a place where seperatism can/ is used to provide spaces of safety and value to women.

There is an additional behaviour change process needed, that can be worked beside feminism, but needs men as such the The King blues lead, speaking in the poem ' five bottles of shampoo' to step up....sorry my phone won't let me link to it.

i'm not planning to do it, or for it to be long term - i'm thinking more of a retreat type place where i could go for a weekend.

i think a lot of men, even ones who are wonderful parents & great partners, just 'switch off' about the kids in a way that i don't - e.g. dh got a lie in last sat am, while i was at work, and he'd kind of not yet woken up enough to remember that dd was at a sleepover and needed to be collected by a certain time.

he would, of course, have remembered fairly quickly, but hadn't thought to set an alarm. luckily, i texted him from work.

personally, i would have had the pick-up time nailed into my brain like a red flag, and organised my going to bed/getting up, doing chores time around it.

and i do wonder what a men & children environment would be like - there's no reason i think it should be different from the typical mum & tots group, but that just shows how ridiculous it is that women do so much of the childcare.

i do find that a lot of religion really upsets me with the attitude towards women - i remember being almost incandescent with rage when getting married and it still had the 'who gives this woman' part in the ceremony. i wanted to get married because i wanted to publicly proclaim that i was setting up house with dh, but the wording was about a man, my father, handing ownership of me to dh.

there's also a long history of women being viewed as emotionally/intellectually lesser than men - like children.
that's why women didn't used to have the vote, and why we're seen as weak if we cry. it's because we're like children, not yet fully grown up & responsible, so our opinions don't matter. some people think that women should just sit still & be quiet, like children, 'seen but not heard'. i used to work with someone who literally didn't hear what women said - his ears may have recognised the noise, but his brain didn't notice what was said. he was the HR manager in the school, and there was a strong tendency for men to get jobs above women (and yes, we were putting together a case with the unions before i left).

so, actually, if i was going to retreat for a while to a separatist place, i would want it to be child free. i wouldn't want to live like that forever, but i would like to have the freedom of thought that comes with not having a child around that i'm responsible for.

(That was a joke, btw)

Yes SaF, because what women do in the 'private' sphere of the home is their own business and there's no need for the State to interfere with that deficit creating subsidised childcare and elders day centres. Keep it in the family and stop wasting tax payers' money.

"women and children first"

Yes absolutely "women and children" is one group and men the other.

Just marking place to catch up later. This is fascinating

kickass's point about male spaces = men and female spaces = women and children was a bit of a lightbulb moment

I've just been reading it again in the light of all your posts on women coming together to help with child-rearing and it's striking how separate all the women are. The dominance of men relies on the separation of women.

Shouldn't have pressed post. I think Martha's mother is a great example of how lone women can be viewed - paranoid, suspicious, damaging.

The thread on cleaning reminded me of a short story that, along with 'To Room Nineteen' by Doris Lessing, affected me deeply when I read it as a child. It's such a powerful statement on the role of women.

'Weekend' by Fay Weldon

Fay Weldon reading it aloud

oh, and recently I noticed that the business section of a flight I was on was 100% male. and we all know how welcome children are on business class flights. it kind of scared me to see it, tbh.

my gut reaction is to somehow make millions & be able to fly me & dd business class, rather than wanting a women only section of the plane.

this is just making me realise how much 'society' just does not cater for childcare.

one of the fundamental requirements, even of a basic society (stereotypical cavemen) is that babies are born & grow to be healthy, contributing adults.
within 'advanced' society, it is still a basic requirement, but with the added need for those adults to be socialised into following society's mores.

you would think, therefore, that maternity & childcare would be almost reverred. pretty much the best thing that can happen for society is for children to be brought up and cared for effectively. but society actually seems to work against that. look at how hard it is to have a job & children.

without having & caring for children, there would be no future for any of us - we'd end up dying out, and the ending would be pretty grim for those who hung on the longest. that may be best for the planet, but not best for humanity.

i am really thinking that until that job is seen as pretty much fundamental to the survival of the race, and therefore respected as such, then there won't be equality of the sexes.

just because it's possible to do a half-decent job on the cheap, it is treated as unimportant, and foisted onto women (mainly), then treated almost as a crime if we need time off work (be it a day or a lifetime), and that we are leaching off society.

Oh she's gone home now, they've fallen out.

Should have taken her straight home after that sleepover and not let her stay all day...

Lol, you are not alone..my sympathies...

:)

oh god I just hate looking after other people's kids.