Men are doing as much housework as women..

That's really funny - I agree with you. I keep saying i would like two things a man who looks after himself and a dog doesn't shit - as far as I am aware neither exists!

Having said that I have a son, and I am thinking of just apologising to his significant other because his will to not be tidy and organised is greater than my will to get him to be so. Although he is currently in my own version of bootcamp to try and redress the balance. I still have time - and I will not give up the fight.

Not sure I ever thought a man would look after me, did however think he might be able to look after himself! In that I have been sadly disappointed.

I think it might have a lot to do with expectation. If I said I didn't know what needed doing around the house or how to cook tea, I would generally be perceived as lacking in some way. If dh doesn't know what needs doing that's OK, he's not supposed to. I vividly remember having to go back to work part-time when ds was 10 weeks old. I had found the whole experience of being a mother horrific and was struggling. Work was my lifeline. All the HV asked was how dh was going to manage looking after his son 1 day a week and was I sure he could cope. Never mind dh, I wasn't sure I could cope. She was shocked when I said I niether knew nor cared - it was up to dh to damn well make sure he could parent his child.

@GooseyLoosey
I think it's because some women need order to function effectively and historically women are genetically programmed to create order for men.

Woman is maid of man. We are men's servants - and we are still lured into the trap by Cinderella. We think a man will look after us but very cleverly we are there to look after men and they buy us dresses, shoes, handbags and shiny things and we are hypnotised by our wants and we forget that we are domestic slaves. The majority of women give themselves away to easily. We are unhappy enough to complain about it but not co-ordinated enough to change it.

I am out the house for 13 hours a day and I still do the majority of the housework and dh would agree that this is the case. He simply does not "see" what needs doing, or at least that is his excuse. I have tried leaving things to see if there is a point at which he does "see" the need to act, but I break before he does. He seems to think that is is alright to say that "men just don't see mess". I know that in a way he is right, I don't allow him to see it because my tolerance for living in a pig sty is much lower than his - don't know why that is though.

When we're both in the house we do as much as each other and sometimes (most) DH does more. He's much better at single tasks than me, I flit from room to room doing half a job.

Oh, no, don't apologize pan - difficult to get tone on the net.

I only asked about hoarding because I was reading about people who did seem to have quite serious mental issues, which were being made visible in their houses. I think the whole question of who does the housework, does one partner do more, is it because they have different standards from each other, is such a minefield that it would be good to know more about why some of us mind so much about clutter and others don't. I suspect women are conditioned to mind/feel guilty about a messy house much more than men, and that becomes a vicious circle because if you live with someone who has higher standards than you, it's so easy to make cleaning 'their' issue.

yes it was funny! was I being all po-faced? Sorry

Hoarding - I've only know one hoarder - the mum of an ex-p. The bathroom was a positive arsenal of cleaning materials and bottles of detergents and sparays, and half a forest's worth of Lou Rawls. I believe she had ishooos, but prob. not illuminating on the poss gender question posed.

pan - I just meant you suggested being a student overwhelmed/cancelled out the element of homosexuality you'd say leads to a clean house - I thought it was funny! Students do often seem to have far more common ground with each other than with anything else, it's true.

I was wondering something that may be more relevant than my above digression - do we know if 'hoarding' is a particularly gendered thing? That sometimes has a lot to do with what you perceive to be a 'clean' house.

No hierarchy implied or intended. And yes, such things have indeed struck me! which is why I qualify everything with 'generally', 'usually' and 'more likely' sort of thing.
This stops most people drawing wrong conclusions......

doris - plenty of people, male and female, change their domestic habits when they're in a relationship. Some men I have known are perfectly able to cook, clean and so on - but once they're with a woman, that is her job.

Ah, so in the hierarchy of human types, student is above homosexual? Ok then!

Does it not strike you that just maybe, gay men are just as varied in their habits as straigh men, or gay women, or whatever? I could be wrong, but I'm not waiting with bated breath for scientists to demonstrate that the genetic codes for homosexuality, house cleaning and a liking for Elton John are all interlinked.

admirably balanced point of view, sakura.

Tarty - generalised neurotic comments

and for the devaluing of domestic work

Well done!

I have to say Sakura your motto is growing on me.

Gender inequality is such a huge issue.

For every single mother out there there's a single man. If he's doing "fuck all" cleaning, his house will be filthy and overun with mice and rats.

Do you envy him?

Women do not have the right to impose their neurotic standards of cleanliness on men. A healthy relationship is more important than a house like a petri dish.

LOL at the title of this thread!

This is my motto:
FOr every single mother out there, there's a man doing FUCK ALL

Well, my experience is a good deal more detailed, and of some longevity. What you describe are STUDENTS! And yes they are just dirty gay, bi, straight, or anything in between. They have much loftier things to think about than who last cleaned the loo. And good for them.

I share a house with some gay blokes two out of three years at university - 'domestic sensitivities' isn't quite what I noticed!

Gay blokes? We have different experiences. Bar none, they are/have been much more aware of domestic sensitivities than straight blokes.

but yes you are right. They DO tend to date other gay men.

Gay men I've known have been more or less indistinguishable from straight men, apart from their tendency to date blokes.

I don't see how you could ever establish the truth of who does the most housework without fly-on-the-wall cameras or something - asking people what they think is pointless imo.

FWIW, I just asked DH and was pleasantly surprised he admits I do more.

Tarty - probably both men and women would do the pointing. Both, albeit from different viewpoints, regarding "well if your house is dirty then you aren't a proper woman".

IME I have only known one woman who was OCD about cleaning, and she had personal ishooos. Most women I have known care much less. Most blokes I have/do know are utter pigs. Gay men are much, much more careful.

How many times do people point at women for not keeping a decent house
Who is it that does this pointing? Men? or Women?

I know a lot of women that have what I would term OCD regarding cleanliness and tidiness. Apart from being a waste of time, it's harmful to children to grow up in a sterile home, they need some dirt and germs in order to build immunities.

My DH and I both work Full Time at present. We have one toddler. I still BF which seems to take ages of my time.

I am out of the house from 7.15 to about 7.30 to 8pm Monday to Friday.
During the week I get my clothes ready for work and sometimes throw together a dinner but my DH now does the rest of the house work. I do a big clean at weekend if I am not totally exhausted and say my toddler sleeps. So getting ready for work and work itself take up to 13-14 hours per working day. I get 3-4 hours with my toddler. The remaining time is spent chatting with DH then sleeping and if I can't sleep I will MN or watch something on Iplayer.

It is really hard juggling everything - but my DH certainly does at least around 2 hours of work a day I think more likely it is more time - and that would not involve nearly all the childcare undertaken Mon to Fri.

We have at least 2, (sometimes 3) loads of washing per day. My DH makes me breakfast and dinner - that way I get to spend precious time with my son. My son wakes between 5am to 6am and comes into my bed, I bf him while my DH makes me and my son breakfast, My son and I have breakfast in bed every week day morning, and while munching away I read my son stories - I usually get through 4-5 of his favourite books. I then do a mad dash getting ready for work (have it down to 20 mins to get my self washed and dressed and out the door) but to do this my DH makes the bed, clears away our breakfast, gets my son ready for nursery and any other associated admin like bills for nursery, our bills etc. Any spare time is spent with me cuddling and playing with my so. If my toddler sleep then spare time is spent with my DH, reading a good book and if I can't sleep then I MN.

Again when I return from work I BF my son, my DH makes me dinner and I play with my son. Often when I get home my son is bathed and washed ready for playing/feeding before bed. DH does the majority of the regular food shopping too.

DH has some flexibility with his hours, although they are full time. He does not have the commute I have. I find the tube in this weather awful and that is why loads of washing are so immense. If I've been out all day and travelled on the tube then I like to have all my work clothes washed.

DH does the rubbish I tend to do the gardening. Again I make gardening a game with my son. I tend to take the lead on DIY/ repairs. We have no one else around to help so I'd be lost without him.

On weekends I take the lead on cooking or we have something simple or we try pop out and about. We still find we need to do some cleaning on the weekends.

I am falling asleep right now