Why are elderly women so ignored by society ...

Terrific last post garlic
If you're eccentric then I want to be eccentric too!

it isn't even 'elderly' women that are ignored..

women over 35 are underrepresented n TV ..and women over 50 are the most underrepresented group in the UK in terms of people appearing on TV..

this points to the 'no longer eye candy ergo no longer relevant' judgement being correct.

I think there are massive class and race based differences here as well actually - if you are a middle class older women and you are active in the community/church/parish council etc then you are actually very visible and rightly so - you have both the time and the experiences and skills to be so.

When my mother (mid-60s) ended up in hospital though, sadly for the last time she didnt get the treatment she needed until too late because they wrote her off as an elderly person - she looked much older than she was and refused to dye her hair etc as she was against vanity in all forms.

Am not sure what I am trying to say here maybe that the ageism is actually mroe institutionally based than it is individual iyswim.

Am not sure what to make of the antiageing attempts as well if they get you noticed in contexts like healthcare. Althoug harguably if less women dyed their hair and had treatments then my mother would have looked more 'normal' for her age.

Forgot to thank you, Miranda - I'm not fab, just eccentric

Interesting :) And good to see there are some other posters the wrong side of middle-aged! I imagine the reason ageism is noticeable on Mumsnet is that we're engaged in conversations with younger adults speaking freely. At work or in Starbucks, they're less likely to rant about the crapness of "old" people while you're within earshot - they'll do it about you, after you've left!!

I was part of a mass redundancy program when I was 48. From my department (of about 50 people), all eleven of us were aged over 40. Coincidence? Surely not ...

Things get worse as people get older, certainly, and women's problems get worse faster than men's. I don't see any point in limiting this discussion to the over-70s, though, for several reasons.

Ageing is different for each generation. My 80yo mother has lived longer than her parents and is aeons 'younger' than her grandmother at 80. My generation is much 'younger' than our parents were at our age. Our old age won't be the same as our parents': we will probably be significantly poorer, but fitter and more mentally agile. (And the British climate will be colder.)

We are the 'baby boomers', our generation causes a population bulge at every stage. We will be the elderly population everybody seems so scared of. It's up to us to deal with that, 'cause no-one else ever has nor ever will.

Our social and economic environment has changed, and continues to change, almost beyond recognition. The Britain in which we are elderly will not be the one experienced by today's 80-year-olds.

Age prejudice kicks in much younger than you expect. If any woman thinks she's immune until 60, she's got a few shocks ahead.

There's an interesting feminist challenge in this: Can women turn their loss of patriarchal value into a strong advantage? If we're becoming invisible, could that lead to a stealth attack? I was thinking not - as we're not only invisible, but also mute - then I remembered the WI Everyone forgets it exists, except for the odd joke about cake competitions, but in fact it's a very influential body that can affect government policy.

We need to be far less silent! We also owe it to ourselves to learn more about the diseases of ageing, such as alzheimer's, arthritis, osteoporis, cataracts, sclerosis, etc, and start taking care that their effects are better managed and more widely understood.

I don't think that the world has caught up NotQuiteSoDesperate. I never met my grandmother, she died before I was born, but I can see that by my age she was old. The world has moved on. I am over 50 and go running most days-I can see from remarks on here that many a young mum wouldn't get to the end of their road without having to stop for a rest! I can't think of much that I wouldn't have a go at.
I would prefer to look younger but it doesn't bother me-there is no way I would have botox or surgery-but I am young in mind which is what matters.

This thread is very interesting. I have only recently found MN and have got seriously addicted to reading the threads - I am also 54. The ageism is pretty astounding - particularly the way that everyone over 50 is kind of lumped in together as "mad" or "old" or "past it". I work full-time, am the breadwinner for my family and have two young adult sons. I don't think "old", I am very technically competent and am at the peak of my career. I never stop learning new things for my own interests and to better my career. In fact, I often find that younger people are more set in their ways than I am.

Funnily enough, I find that as I get older I am more accepted as a kind of leader in my profession to younger colleagues, which is nice. But then, maybe that's because I now fit the stereotype of my profession perfectly - no bun, but middle aged, woman, with glasses - yes, I'm a librarian! :)

No, I won't go down the surgery, botox route. Can't afford it and don't want to do that. I can't say I'm happy about the wrinkles and chin hairs, but when I think about how my Mum dressed and acted at this age, there does seem to be a real difference in attitude. But maybe the world hasn't caught up with that yet!

It is actually nothing to do with age. There are women on here in their 20's who are possessive control freaks-they won't have changed when they get to be MIL. If you were tolerant and laid back you are not going to change when you are older-unless you get dementia-something that is rarely allowed for in arguments about 'old biddies'.

I think that there is rampant ageism on MN-probably the worst that comes to my notice.

I feel the same RustyBear-being over 50. I know perfectly well that if I have an argument with a young mother when out and about I would be likely to end up on MN-I don't mind that at all since I would be in the right But I know that my age would come into it and it would be 'the old bat in the cafe', as if my age had any relevance to my behaviour or my views. The assumption would be that my age is the cause of it and you don't need to take any account because I am an old bat.
I think that MIL can be much younger in their thinking than some DIL! (certainly more flexible)

I agree about the ageism thing on MN - how many times do you see, when someone is complaining about their MIL, the response 'it's a generational thing'
Most of the time, they don't even know how old the MIL in question is - it's just a general 'older woman=doesn't know what they're talking about' attitude, or the assumption that anyone over the age of about 50 is going to be racist, anti-breastfeeding, technophobic [insert prejudice of choice], with the patronising insinuation that they can't really help it, poor thing....

There are a few of us over 50's on here (I was 55 yesterday) -I just hope we don't all get siphoned off to Gransnet - I'm just waiting for the first time I get told, when complaining about ageism on MN "If you don't like it on here, why don't you fuck off to Gransnet..."

The reason I think this- is the comment on old men being lavishly noticed-on reflection I think that it means 50/60/70 and I was assuming it to be 80+ where I really don't think they are lavishly noticed. I replied to quickly.

I think that ageism is the problem and the point at which you are called elderly.

I can't say that old men are lavishly noticed. I would say that the old are ignored in general. They are too slow-I have seen a thread on here saying why should the elderly shop at lunch time, they have all day and workers are in a hurry!!
Why can't the elderly be free to shop whenever they like?! Why do they have to suit those in paid employment? (I think that they are classed with SAHM here who are not supposed to shop at lunchtime either!)
Maybe the men appear to be noticed more because there are far less of them. (I am talking about the elderly- not 60/70yr olds)
I can't help thinking that this thread isn't about the elderly at all -but about the older woman.

I wonder why old men are lavishly noticed whereas old females are ignored. Strange that. Then again it could be blatant sexism.

But why would females ignore old females?

garlic you sound fab!

It is a bit disconcerting when you walk into a room and people don't seem to see you. These are younger people, though, and maybe feel that an oldie has no relevance, like their parents, who are worthless scum. (Worn-down parent of twin teenagers. Sigh)

I'm quite looking forward to it-I intend to have fun and grow old disgracefully. After a lifetime of being sensible, and worrying what others think, it will be a release.

I think it's fear of losing their social status GB.

At a gut level, even women who aren't particularly interested in feminism, are well aware that losing their looks and getting old, will make them less welcome in the world. So they try their best to distance themselves from that unwelcome group.

Same reason some women are so anti single mothers, or some people hate unemployed people on benefits I guess - a fear that there but for the grace of god go I, so if I distance myself from it as far as possible, it will protect me from it.

Except of course, that as the only alternative to old age is death, it's a club they're going to have to join sooner or later...

Thinking about age-defiance: I kept an open mind on it until I started ageing for real. Then I realised that age-defiance doesn't work. You can get a smoother skin, a firmer jawline and a trim body but it won't make you 25 again. You will be a 60-year-old with weirdly taut skin and a good body. Your whole demeanour, the tone of your voice and the glint in your eye will be those of a woman who's lived more than twice as long.

Everybody who has Botox, collage, peels and lifts KNOWS that. I don't completely understand why they do it.

Disclaimer: I've just spent half an hour tweezing the bloody whiskers out of my face I'm not of the 'let it all hang out' school (though it would save a hell of a lot of time) but would not seek to alter my appearance. Or am I a hypocrite?

Thinking 'out loud' here. If it's fear - fear of what? Of losing one's looks and therefore one's worth, perhaps? Is there a subliminal belief that "all women are prostitutes" to patriarchal eyes, and the pretty ones get the pay? Is that why the age-defying marketplace is so huge?

Fear of dependence? A thirty-something SAH woman can aim to get a job, post-divorce, but not a 60-something. She'd have to sue for her rights to a share of her husband's pension, if he has one.

Is there a fear of older womens' non-compliance with patriarchal values? With nothing to lose after the loss of 'erotic capital', you're free to do what you like and say what you think, even more so than being a scary feminist Does that threaten some women's whole concept of what being female means?

Dunno, just rambling.

Ormirian - I think it's fear as well.

I very much doubt that women in their sixties, seventies etc., who aren't as rich as men of the same age, are poorer because they haven't worked as much.

I suspect they've worked more. It's just that on the whole, their work has been unpaid, unrecognised and unvalued. Because it's been women's work.

at ripple of interest! I compensate by wearing painfully bright colours. Jenny Joseph had the right idea

Agree exotic. Some MNers are utterly vile about old(er) women. I often wonder if it's fear.

BTW I am 46 so not a spring chicken. I have noticed that the ripple of interest that I created when i walked into a room (small at the best of times) has reduced to zero now.

Glad to hear the gaps have been covered, Edith, thanks.

Money is obviously a big issue. But the OP was about perceived value: older women as a general rule are so invisible and their brilliance overlooked. I definitely agree with this but it's hard to discuss, somehow.

I have found that my values have self-adjusted somewhat as I've aged. Mine may have altered more than most - or I'm more aware of changes - because of all the therapy I've been doing for 10 years. I am 'invisible' and, in the day-to-day, I like it. I'm unconcerned about sags, wrinkles and lard. 90% of the artists on my playlist are dead - I care that they died so young, but not that I can't name many live ones. Peple have stopped asking me why I haven't got a partner. I am far braver in my choices, more cynical of other people's motives and more compassionate to troubled folk. I like all that.

I'm unemployable and I don't like that at all. I'm often ignored when I shouldn't be. People of both sexes assume I'm a bit stupid in ways they didn't, ten years ago. I've been poor before, but utterly confident in my ability to get rich again. I'm not at all confident I can this time, because of age prejudice which is very real. I've discussed this with my 54-year-old brother, also an achiever type, who finds that men (not just him) are able to convert a "past it" perception into "experienced" whereas women (not just me) can't - unless they'd reached an extremely high level of influence before 45. I've been told, countless times and in countless euphemisms, that I'm too old for the job.

Again, it's the business of women having to do so much more than men, simply to get a shot at parity. I do actually think this will have changed in 20 years' time but, like I said, I'm stormingly pissed off at being in the front line yet again. And it won't change as much as it needs to.

If I'm noticing all this at 56, fuck knows how bad it's going to be at 76. I have started collecting 60+ female role models, but wish I could find a few more who aren't wedded to Botox and surgery! Thank god for Greer