Female Genital Mutilation

hester education both of the practise itself and the consequences would be the first step. Perhaps it is my eternal optimism, but I believe that if the communities practicing FGM were made aware of just how dangerous it was, they'd be less likely to subject their daughters to it. There is also a woeful lack of knowledge surrounding the issue in general so for the wider public to just know that girls and women are mutilated in this way is an important step towards changing the practise. IMO.

MrsReasonable although I agree that there should be classification by severity . I do believe these are separate issues. The ideology behind female circumcision is that of control of women by their owners - men. As a feminist, surely you can see that.

I typed all of that and then had to deal with a (literal) shit-storm from DS. (Resulting from too many apples today - I think) so apologies if a little behind the conversation

Thanks for that, Spoons.

MrsReasonable, it is your opinion, not fact, and I disagree with it. In my view it is very helpful to separate circumcision by gender, since you are dealing with different communities, different cultures, different motivations, different implications, different outcomes. I cannot see any coherent campaign strategy that would straddle, say, the UK Jewish community and women in Somalia.

It is absolutely fact that FGM is far, far more dangerous to health and wellbeing than male circumcision. You may argue that the risks of male circumcision are serious enough to merit more attention than they currently get, but that still does not make them equate in severity or incidence with FGM.

I haven't expressed my opinion on male circumcision and I'm not going to, since this is not the thread for it. Enough, for now, to say that I have watched male circumcision being performed, and I have worked with specialist FGM midwives, and to me it seems like sophistry to talk about them being the same experience. It irritates me in the way it does when Mnetters talk about ear-piercing as 'mutilation'. (And no, I'm not saying male circumcision is equivalent to ear-piercing; I'm saying there is a continuum with ear-piercing at one end and FGM way, way down the other.)

Cleared up:

"There's just no comparison between the two, and the campaigns should be kept separate."
Separating circumcision by gender is unhelpful - it is better to separate the types, and there are many different types, by severity.

"to equate FGM with male circumcision is just ridiculous. FGM endangers girls and women's lives. Male circumcision reduces sexual pleasure."
It is also not the case that male circumcision is not as dangerous or harmful - about 120 boys die in the US each year from it.

I don't think that's opinion.

Yes, good call, UsingMainlySpoons, I did notice that after I posted and thought 'it's not actually hypocritical is it, just double standards'. There are various comments upthread about MGM not being as serious or damaging as FGM, which is incorrect in some cases.

As to what can be done about it, I think there should be education about the damage given to communities, perhaps funded and organised by charities like AI or even states. Also, there should be real political pressure put on countries with this problem to criminalise the practice and enforce this, although I imagine this would already easily come under assault-type laws which every country has, surely?

Not yet, but if this goes on I just might

You haven't cleared anything up, you've just given us your opinion, which you are of course entitled to do.

Anyway, back to FGM. I'd be interested in others' views on what can be done here, as opposed to in the countries where it is practised. What is a reasonable level of intrusion/intervention to prevent girls being taken abroad for FGM? How should we support girls and women who have been mutiliated and are living here, both to improve their own wellbeing and to campaign for an end to this practice?

Not really, other than obviously it's brutal and horrible and should be thoroughly stamped out.

As a feminist, I find mutilation of either gender's genitals horrible. No reason we can't fight for all babies/children, and not just 51%.

Ok, so have you actually got anything to say about FGM, mrsreasonable?

It is downright hypocritical to say male circumcision is OK, not a big deal, etc, but FGM is brutal, horrific.

Separating circumcision by gender is unhelpful - it is better to separate the types, and there are many different types,

It is also not the case that male circumcision is not as dangerous or harmful - about 120 boys die in the US each year from it.

"Why, as feminists, as mothers, as general badasses, are we willing to overlook this as a human rights issue? ?Because it?s always been done? is a horrible answer. We are not those who acquiesce to the status quo. When we do, we are no better than the patriarchs we claim to fight against, perpetuating a harmful practice because it?s always been done that way and we can?t be troubled to stop it."

But anyway, this thread was specifically about FGM, so let's get back to that. Just wanted to clear up some misleading assertions, thanks.

I don't think I can watch the film - but I have read many articles on FGM and it is horrific, sadistic and done purely for control reasons. I don't think that is comparable to male circumcision, which, for the record I am also against.

It is incredibly disturbing that it appears to be on the increase in this country. And that article woolly linked to states that "there has yet to be a single conviction, despite 100 investigations being carried out over two years by the Met" which is equally worrying considering 22,000 girls are thought to be at risk in this country and 66,000 women girls are thought to have already had the procedure.

To quote Jane Ellison "I struggle to understand why the systematic and brutal wounding of young girls is not considered a national scandal." Well, exactly.

How dare you wimmin focus on something that seriously affects women? How dare you focus on an issue that endangers girls' lives?

We must turn this around to be about The Menz!

No, no, we must discuss it again, in the interests of equality

We've had endless threads on MN about male circumcision. Isn't this one supposed to be about women and girls?

What I meant was that FGM is much more debilitating than male circumcision. I am not in favour of male circumcision either, and I have no doubt that it is very painful at the time, but it does not cause the same kind of long therm problems and disabilities that FGM does. If it did, it would not be done any more, would it?

I am completely against unnecessary male circumcision BUT to equate FGM with male circumcision is just ridiculous. FGM endangers girls and women's lives. Male circumcision reduces sexual pleasure.

Although in a man's mind the 2 might be the same

"It's a bit like comparing a broken finger, and having an arm amputated, with no anaesthetic."

How do you know? Anyway, surely the more apt analogy, even assuming that male circumcision is less painful, is amputating a finger without anaesthetic, not having it broken.

Whilst I don't really agree with male circumcision on babies or young children, it is not the same.

OK, we'll have to disagree.

It's a bit like comparing a broken finger, and having an arm amputated, with no anaesthetic.

Well I really do think there is a comparison between the two. Both are genital mutiliation and both are done on babies or young children.

There's just no comparison between the two, and the campaigns should be kept separate.

FGM is a growing problem here, too, and some hospitals have specialist clinics and specialist midwives to manage it (St Thomas', for example). It can cause huge problems in childbirth, creating fistulas etc.

While female genital mutiliation is of course still an issue, each year, around 1.2 million male babies in the US are circumcised in medically-unnecessary procedures ? and that?s discounting the cases where there is a genuine medical reason to do so, which I have absolutely no problem with.

While I agree that female genital mutiliation is far worse, a huge amount of male babies are still mutiliated at birth and with very little people seeing a problem with it.