Am I right to be annoyed by this kind of comment?

louie74

That is a very good post indeed.

The question I was asking, abeit perhaps not clearly, was about the line between harrassment and uncomfortable. Two of my female staff were discussing ( in the kitchen and on their break ) breastfeeding. It made on of the male staff uncomfortable - my reaction was initially for him to get over it. Later on there was a fire alarm and the women were hanging out the window commenting about good looking firemen. One of the men joked that if he did this then the women would complain that he was being lecherous. He had a point but there was then a discussion about how there was a distinction between banter and harrassment and that to assume that banter was the first step on the road to harrassment was wrong.

You cannot say surely that I can dictate the tone of all conversations and that all relationships should be sterile simply because they're in the workplace. I think staff can discuss ethnic minorities, women's rights etc without it being racist or sexist. The fact that those matters are the topics of discussion don't make it harrassment or victamisation in my view.

"Some of the female staff have discussions that make my male staff uncomfortable and vice versa but they all get on with it. I'd hate to think that there should be no tolerance at all."

If you are aware of that, then shouldn't you do something about it? If, say, a member of staff is discussing the opposite sex (or a member of the opposite sex) in an inappropriate way then they should be made aware that it isn't acceptable in the workplace. If as the boss you do nothing, you are placing the onus is on a member of staff to take action by reporting something to you. That's not fair - you force a member of staff (male or female) to be the 'party-pooper'/intolerant killjoy, putting her/him in a really difficult position with colleagues. So people put up with stuff they shouldn't in order to avoid a worse situation, all because the manager wants to see 'tolerance'.

Just imagine it's racism we're talking about. Is it really okay for white staff to have conversations that make minority ethnic staff 'uncomfortable'? Is it okay for the boss to turn a blind eye to that whilst claiming the workplace is free from harassment or discrimination?

I imagine being a boss is not easy at all but it is a boss's responsibility to set the tone. Whenever you work in a place that has a negative atmosphere or where staff bully colleagues, you can bet that behaviour comes from the top down.

And it is the workplace - not the pub after work where a boss has no say in what is said/done. I manage to do my job without talking about men sexistly, talking about shagging, making racist remarks, etc. and I don't see why other people can't.

I understand that but does that not make for an extremely sterile environment ? I'm genuinely interested as I I think my staff are entitled to work free from harassment or discrimination but I'd hate to think that a comment that happens to make someone uncomfortable can be viewed as either ? Some of the female staff have discussions that make my male staff uncomfortable and vice versa but they all get on with it. I'd hate to think that there should be no tolerance at all.

louie74 Thu 21-Jul-11 17:05:36
Is this really a feminist issue though?

I think so, Louie.

...as an employer, I cannot provide an environment that someone won't be uncomfortable in.

The Head is the bloody boss. His behaviour sets an example for what is acceptable within the school. So yes he can and should provide such an environment. In this case, it is clearly acceptable to make leery coments about female members of staff.

...can I really call someone out for 'sexist' behaviour just because someone feels uncomfortable with it?

Yes. It's a workplace. Employees need to uphold professional standards of behaviour. Making a colleague feel uncomfotable by making sexist comments is not professional behaviour, so they certainly can be called out on that.

Sexual banter occurs and is surely part of social interaction. When does it cross the line?

I know what you're saying. One often is very friendly with colleagues (especially in teaching, I find). And of course 'sexual banter' does occur and is often consenual two-way exchange, in which case it is not a problem.

But if you misread it, get it wrong, make comments that are unasked for and make the recipient feel uncomfortable, then you just have to cop to it.You may not like it and feel that you're being told off for an honest mistake, but I don't see how you could argue it - the workplace is no place for sexual banter. So if you do engage in it and it is complained about, then you have no leg to stand on.

To be safe you must be very very very sure that any commments you make are welcome. But even safer to not engage in 'sexual banter' at all, imo!

Princessglitter

No need to apologise! In fact, I think owe you an apology as I realise I probably sounded all ranty and aggressive, which I didn't intend. Well not aimed at you, anyway! Sorry about that.

I know what you mean about buggy invisibility. It's funny - before DCs, I used to hate walking around in a vest top in the summer; all the leers and comments. But since aquiring buggies (and small people to put in them), I can wear incredibly skimpy outfits and no-one ever looks twice at me. Which is both fantastic and depressing - the old freedon to/freedom from argument again.

Sorry Daisy - was skim reading and got to the bit where OP said she was a mother and completely got wrong idea.

And yes - didn't mean it to sound as if she would be invisible standing behind a buggy ( although that's how i feel, sometimes...)

Is this really a feminist issue though ? I've been thinking about this and trying to work out the difference between comments (albeit sexual or otherwise ) and discrimination due to some issues at work and I'm forming the view, as an employer, that I cannot provide an environment that someone won't be uncomfortable in. My staff know of and adhere to our policies on any type of discrimination but can I really call someone out for 'sexist' behaviour just because someone feels uncomfortable with it ? Sexual banter occurs and is surely part of social interaction. When does it cross the line ?

princessglitter, sorry I'm a bit confused. I can't see where the OP said she was leaving to be a SAHP, just that she was leaving.

And in any case, that's a bit of a nuts position to take, isn't it?

"Oh well, that was pretty sexist and insulting, but never mind. No-one will judge me on me my appearance anymore, not now that I am invisible because I am standing behing a buggy"

I think calling out the 'little' stuff, the guff like this that is supposed to be a 'compliment' is how we start to make inroads towards equality.

She is leaving to be a stay at home mum, so probably will be appreciated for other less glamorous qualities.

The fact that someone can say this without thinking it might be inappropriate and not get an outraged reaction from the audience shows just how far we have to go. This judging women by their looks first is everywhere - did you see the Observer profile of Christine Legarde yesterday? Much more on her appearance than her policies; and that from a 'serious' paper. I was fuming about it. It seems particularly bad in the teaching context - effectively 'teacher as sex object for poorly performing boys'. What???

There was observation and inference / deduction in the Head's comments i.e. if "jaws dropped" then "jaws dropped however the right balance between inference and deduction depends on how sucessful the teacher was and interpretation of the results however......

YANBU.

of course you're right to be annoyed. i would be too.

i bet the teacher is glad it was her leaving do and she's going elsewhere - maybe her new job will appreciate her for her professional ability and not her looks.

depending on the relationship you have with the head, i would consider asking him if he wasn't worried that what he said had been insulting to the ex-colleague's professional ability... and wasn't he worried it might have come accross that he thought that she was only good because she was pretty? [passive-agressive that i am when it comes to misogyny]

I love the teaching. I don't love any of the rest of it.

My old Head once patted me on the head and said "Come in, Trouble" to me when we had a meting about the DIP.

I was a mother in my thirties, with several years teaching experience and a second in my department.

It's problematic because so much of the pupils' experience of school needs to be that hierarchical set-up, it is often unthinkingly transposed to the staff, too. And this always means women at the cutting edge of this.

My results are good, so I am tolerated. But I am definitely seen as "one of those". Much younger, less experienced, less 'proven' colleagues have progressed faster than I have because they are willing to play along with the idea that they are 'girls' to be managed and 'looked after' when doing the big important stuff outside of the classroom.

I'm sorry that you had to leave the profession SAF. It is the kids' loss, it really is - from what I know of you on here you must have been absolutely inspiring.

Schools are are hard hard place to be a feminist - I know this to my cost.

What Daisy said so eloquently.

This totally sucks. And it happens a lot in teaching. A sort of group assumption that teenage boys are a ball of hormones who can barely prevent themselves from ejaculating whenever a woman under the age of eighty walk into the room.

It does a disservice to the boys and is also massively insulting for the teacher.

It takes a lot of talent, skill and expertise to get the best out of a low ability set (or top set. Or any set) of boys. Filling out a blouse nicely aint one of them.

If the Head honestly thinks that chucking in a female NQT with a neat waist and shiny hair to the bottom set groups is going to secure the C/D borderline grades that he needs then God help him come results day.

The thing is, he doesn't honestly think that. She was given those classes because she's good with them, and he knows it.

However, what the Head does think is, "My, she's a fine figure of a girl" and he reckons that saying what he did was a compliment. This is because schools are horribly old fashioned, hierarchical and patriarchal institutions - heavily female dominated but with a massively disproportionate number of men near the top, many of whom take a creepy avuncular attitude towards the professional and capable grown women on their staff.

I'd see it as a crass joke, but not necessarily a sexist one. Have heard similar about attractive male teachers. In fact, a certain mr alexander was the only reason half my school chose Chemistry.
Doesn't make it right, obvs.

I'd see it as a joke, with some basis in perceived reality, unless the speaker was generally a sleazy type. It may have been ill-judged though- you'd have to be there to tell.