Why do so many people think Ms means divorced?

Nice one alice!

People don't like the title Ms because it is a statement of deliberate willful intent to be defined independently of any relationship with a man. Therefore it is comforting to categorise Ms as 'had a bloke but now hasn't' because it still relates to the god man.

I don't think Emma W is a great example; I don't know the HP films but isn't her character clever as well as pretty, strong and confident and capable?

The point about 'ugly male actors' seems to me to be that we see a lot more of them on screens than 'ugly female actors', which is troubling. We need a society in which there is a variety of women in the public gaze, and films where women feature as proper characters e.g. rounded human beings, is an important part of that.

There is a continuum, yes, but there is also the issue of the sheer volume of images and productions featuring women who are there just to look 'good' in a certain, narrowly prescribed way.

And I'm with Sal in believing that 'little' things all add up to big ones.

You don't get to decide what too much noise and what's too little. People care about what they think is relevant, no one is the final arbiter of what's important.
I think those things do matter, I think they feed into the same thing. I think they're the root of the evil views you speak of. If you don't, fine.

If people have that superficial a view of feminism that they think it's a laughing stock, I'm not too fussed about their views, frankly.

But, you see the auto correct is out to get me!

Things not think! I'd like to strangle the man ( and unfortunately it almost certainly is a man, nut that's a whole different thread) who invented the auto correct on iPods

We went to see HP tonight, should I have refused to let my DDs see it because Emma Watson happens to have grown up to be rather beautiful?
Of course films family friendly or not are going to have pretty girls and good looking men in them and of course sometimes they aren't going to be wearing modest clothes. Sex sells it always has and it always will.
Clearly where this crosses the line into encouraging anorexia etc it is wrong, but it it is a continuum. Trying to draw the line at a point where all men and most women are still comfortable makes feminism a laughing stock. When people are laughing they are not hearing the calls for better child care, equal pay, fair parental leave for both sexes or honour killings.
If feminists make too much noise about little thinks evil views prosper

That's not very illuminating startail. What point are you making?

Ladyclarice I guess you only go and watch films with ugly male actors

startail, one of the problems feminism faces IMO is that things are often seen as 'a bit of fun' and if any woman objects to them, she is being humourless, is taking things too seriously etc. But 'little' things are on a continuum with 'big' things and all add up to a big deal; they are insidious and become normalised and lead to it being considered OK that every second advert, photoshoot and music video is populated by young, thin, surgically enhanced women dancing like lapdancers. To it being considered OK to make T-shirts with sexually-aware slogans for prepubescent girls. To it being considered OK (if not almost obligatory) for mass-market, ostensibly family-friendly films to feature young women draped across cars for men to admire. To it being considered OK for women to STILL be paid less than men for doing the same job.

Not everyone places the same weight on things as you do Startail. Some people see connections between things that you don't. Not really fair to disrespect people who at heart want the same things you do.

Er...startail, it is because of us humourless feminists that women do now re-enter the workplace, get maternity leave, have part-time options and so on. And that that kind of sexism in school - which I too remember - no longer (usually) holds.

Victor - that gives me heart about the call centres - being a Ms myself.

I am a married Ms for the same reasons as Elephants - no-one needs to know my marital status. The fact I haven't changed my name to DHs also helps with cold callers "Is that Mrs DH's surname", "No!". Stops the conversation fairly promptly .

I am however the only woman in my group of friends who didn't change their name and uses Ms, which I find very strange in this day and age. When I was younger I thought by now it would be the norm to keep your own surname.

However, my Dad still insists on sending letters/cards to Mr & Mrs DH's initial DH's Surname. Is this a battle worth having I ask myself?

OK I didn't mean either equal pay or flippant things like bikini car washes. I meant that Ms always brings to mind the sort of feminist who sees discrimination in the sort of thing that I would just see as a bit of fun.
I'm getting a bit old I remember not being allowed to do metal work at school because we were girls and boys not doing cooking. The boys did a sponsored 24hr football and we were expected to make breakfast.
We lost really good women teachers when they got pregnant, no part time job shares
I'd love a little job, I'd love any job, but because I've taken time out of the work place to bring up my own children, it is very difficult.

Shame we never met ElephantsAndMiasmas :) where have you moved to?

VG that's probably because we are calling to complain that
they changed our account from "Ms x and Mr z" to Mrs and Mr Z when they learned that we got married, without us asking and with me keeping my name(happened to me), or

that they send all the correspondance for the account on our name to our workplace, addressed to DH (happened to a friend of mine) or

that they decided that only DH should have internet bank access to our joint savings account, and the little woman only needs current account access and that's it. (me again)

Of course they will get a bollocking when I call, but only because they are stuck in 50's. 1850's.

I live in Sweden, here titles aren't used. Letters are addressed to K Kaka. They think calling someone Miss, Mrs, Mr etc is weird. Even in school the teachers are Gabriella, Per, Sven. No surnames, no titles.

I agree with Collie though, mostly I prefer just to use my name - I never introduce myself as Ms Tongue, it's always Sugar.

Ms is for women who don't want to be defined by their marital status - I mean wtf is this day and age are we still defined on whether or not we "belong" to our father or husband?!

ooh yes, VG that sounds like me!
don't phone me at teatime and try to sell me something!

and as for CRB....I find it best now to send a covering note-
yes, it's Ms
no,I have never had another surname
yes, I'm married
argh- how long will it be before this simple option of retaining the same name and title through your adult life is understood?

SardineQueen I got told by a guy in a pub who claimed to work on a bank helpline that those callers who call themselves 'Ms' send a cold shiver of fear down the spines of telephone helpline-ers, due to our demanding ways and our intolerance for errors.

Made me even happier in my decision!

I didn't know people thought a Ms. was divorced. I've only ever noticed the sarcastic way some people pronounce it Mzzzz to show their dismissal of it as an title.

I've never heard that Ms. referred to a divorcee but I can't say I'm surprised.

I have been a Ms. "forever" and I also assumed the default for any woman was Ms. I'm really surprised more women don't use Ms.

I've just started working in a school in a support role and was introduced to the students, the teacher asked "is it Miss, or Mrs.??"

With a cold dry sarcastic cackle and a role of the eyes.. I replied "No, Ms. of course." [hwink]

Where are we when a school teacher doesn't even give the Ms. option. Did feminism actually happen?

I have only heard this on MN TBH. I used Ms from whenever it was I got my first back account - 14 or 15 or whatever - and it never caused any problems. I'm sure no-one thought I was divorced then

yes nice post oddboots - it's right for people to have the choice of using it without a lot of strange and totally unrealted assumptions being made.