women over 18 being referred to as girls

Good points, girls!

Fluffles, I do that too! And if anyone (usually male!) used to call women's sport "ladies" this or that then I instantly referred to the male version as "gentlemen's" this or that. Sounds a bit silly that way!

it doesn't bother me but in the interests of equality i do also call men boys. all the time.

i would hate to be called a girl in a work context or a patronising manor, but i don't mind it socially - i go on girls mountain bike weekends or girls coaching sessions (even though i'm 34) but as i say i use the word boys in the same way so i don't see it as a gender inequality thing.

I dislike it intensely, but wouldn't object to it in certain specific contexts (eg some of the examples given in this thread).

But it so easily tips into demeaning, so I think it's important to use the unmarked terms "women" and "men" as the norm. Especially in any "public" setting.

Winetta, I agree, and it's the same with things like 'woman police officer' when in the context it doesn't really matter what gender the police officer is. A slightly irrational particular pet peeve of mine is that in several of JG Ballard's books his narrator refers to his partner's 'women friends'. It always sounds quite derogatory to me and I don't think his narrators refer to their own friends as 'men friends'. Mind you, I think Ballard was a crusty old misogynist anyway ...

As long as I'm not 'old girl' I don't mind.

I agree that context is all.

One peeve of mine is when men's sport is referred to without the "men's" whereas the female version is referred to with its "women's" (woman as other). As an example - "cricket" for the male game and "women's cricket" for the female game.

I'm trying to bring up my DD saying 'woman' and not 'lady'. Ie, 'mind that woman in front of you dd', or 'tell the nice woman what your name is' or 'what's that woman doing over there' etc etc.

Sometimes I have to steel myself to do it after a lifetime of 'lady' being the polite form and 'woman' usually being used in the context of 'the other woman' 'that bloody woman' etc etc - derrogatory.

But DD has picked it up and it is coming naturally to her, and there are ripple effects among my family for using woman more than lady. I told her we only use 'lady' if the female in question has a title.

As you can imagine, some family members have a wry smile at my efforts, but I do want to reclaim the word. It's a great word, it's how I describe myself.

I refer to groups of women as "the girls". But then I also refer to groups of men as "the boys".

I think it's only an issue if people use "girls" but wouldn't use "boys" in the same context. Which, unfortunately, is the case for a lot of people.

Sorry I also much prefer lady to woman.

To say the woman in the office rather than the lady in the office feels rude.
(I'd certainly refer to that woman in the bank and everyone round here would know the one I ment)

Girl is fine, old girl is not (42 isn't even middle aged )

What about guys? Can you call a group of women 'guys'?

"Ladies" came into play when the term ''Gentlewoman" started to mean "prostitute." If you read "Roxana" by Daniel Defoe, as a little girl the protagonist causes great hilarity by telling her carers that when she grows up she wants to be a 'gentlewoman' because they don't have to milk cows. They all laugh because of course she's mistakenly saying "I want to be a prostitute." ... so the word 'gentlewoman' had been corrupted by the early eighteenth century.

I mean, why "ladies and gentlemen"? It OUGHT to be 'Ladies and Lords" by equivalence of title. But "woman'' and even 'gentlewoman" (eg respectable upper middle class woman) became synonymous with 'whore.'

Sad, really. the old dictum that a respectable woman was never talked about actualized in the very word. If someone called you a 'woman' it was an insult.

Totally worth reclaiming.

I agree. I won't use the word 'girls' to describe people over 16 if I can help it. 'The girl from accounts' is just tooth crunching.

Although having said that, I've heard my sister (aged 30) refer to 'the boy in our office' to refer to anyone her age or less. Does seem to have negative connotations, though.

I hate ladies, but I use girls all the time. If men are called boys in the same context (and they often are), then girls is fine IMO. My 86 year old grandmother often calls her friends "the gals"

Bit questionable in a professional situation though - I do go at The Apprentice candidates calling themselves the girls and the boys.

I also try to use the worh "woman". I first started to about 15 years ago in my first proper job where I worked with a canadian. She was horrified that the word "girl" was used to describe adult women.

Must say I don't really have a problem with it. I'd describe a weekend away for women as 'girlie weekend' in the same way as dp would refer to a 'boys weekend' or 'lads holiday'.

'Men's weekend away' sounds just as wierd as 'women's weekend away'.

I'd only have an issue with someone referring to 'men and girls'.

Oh yes, I hate women being called girls and ladies - though I am not sure why I dislike ladies so much. It is terribly difficult to find a substitute though. I run some groups which are mainly women and struggle when addressing them all. I tend to say "everyone" or just "you".

I also dislike "guys" but I think that's mainly because its a masculine description applied to women too.

If I send an email to a group of female friends I tend to address it to "My lovelies".

I quite like 'hen' as it seems to be applied to women of all ages. Also I used to live in Glasgow so I'm fond of it in a nostalgic way!

I quite like being called a girl actually. Also, a Scottish lady I used to know used to call me 'hen'. Lately I've become something of an armchair anarchist so I occasionally call my woman friends 'sisters' (just to remind them that I'm not taking myself THAT seriously). Yikes, life's too short ...!

It depends a bit on the context, but generally I find it annoying. Especially when used as the equivalent of 'men'.

Hate it when men refer to going on a date/sleeping with 'a girl'. I always want to ask 'oh really, and how long have you been a pedophile?' .

I think it's really odd how people feel that 'women' is somehow an impolite or derogatory term. How did that happen?

No offence taken at all, joaninha! I of course only Mumsnet inbetween bossing sessions and embroidery jags but I accept that I'm probably in the minority.

I don't like 'ladies' applied to women either. It does sound a bit violet-creams and oddly patronising. It's difficult to know what to use though ... I think the word 'woman' has developed connotations of being a bit 'humourless feminist', but then again I always say I'm a humourless feminist and proud of it, so I think it might be 'woman' for me from now on. And 'women', which of course is often applied to humourless feminists but spelled, hilariously, 'wimmin'. Let's reclaim it!

On account of this thread, I'm going to reclaim the word "woman". When talking to my DS about other women I use the term "lady" because sometimes "woman" seems a bit derogatory which in itself is a sorry state of affairs.

"Lady" to me conjures up images of Victorian ladies embroidering and bossing servants about and I don't like it very much. Not that there's anything wrong with being a Victorian lady embroidering and apologies to any who are still knocking about. (oh and apologies to you LadyClarice especially cos totally agreed with your "context" post!!)

Yes, I'm OK with being called 'love, 'chuck', 'duck' etc ('duck' in Derbyshire is particularly great as it is also used by, and to, people of all ages and both genders!). I also get 'darling', mainly from men ? and women, come to think of it ? on market stalls and in Turkish shops. I'm fine with all of that. 'Thankyou, darling' as someone hands you your massive box of baklava change is very different from the word being screamed out of a white van or some scaffolding in the middle of an unsavoury sentence and accompanied by disgusting hand gestures.

I agree ladyclarice context is key

I'm mid 50's and will still refer to "girl's night out" etc but also object to the use of 'girls' when it should read 'women'!

I also don't object to being called "luv" or "dear" or "chuck" in those parts of the country where this is a normal term of affectionate address (usually for both sexes) - having grown up in't North I am now part of the great missionary movement to civilise the South so really enjoy some 'terms of endearment' - other times someone calling me 'love' or 'dear' would send me into contemplating strangling them with my bare hands.

'Girls' as a term for women is only acceptable IMO if used in a situation where 'boy' or 'lads' might be used, e.g. 'girls' night out' and 'boys' night out' are both used by my group of friends. And sometimes in a shop I'm served by someone who I definitely think of as young (aged mid-30s emoticon) so a 'girl' or a 'lad'. But 'the girls and the men' makes my teeth itch.