The Myths About Women Who "Cry Rape"

How many times do I have to ask for clarification - verbal consent, every single time, even in a ltr? Yes or no?

eeuw. It's really not worth discussing this with you. Someone else do this, cos I can't.

"Give us an example of an "obvious" non verbal consent? How obvious should you be with a one night stand?"

The man escalates. The woman doesn't resist and makes it clear she is happy with the escalation. That's how many women like it, thanks, and it's enough.

Or even more obvious, groans at his kisses, pulls him closer, digs her nails into his back, kisses more passionately, even unzips the man's flies or sticks her hand down his trousers, the list is long. All work fine for most women.

"If he's not got consent he should make sure. But consetn can be obvious without it being verbal."
Circular argumentation. We are telling you that it is NOT always obvious. Not always. Just isn't. Does not matter how you serve it up.

"Women who outright refuse to do things they don't want to, are seen as aggressive bitches."

No they aren't.

"We bend over backwards to be tactful about suggesting things, hedging our language around with "do you mind if...d'you think it's a good idea to... what about... if you don't mind... what d'you think of ..." etc."

Yes I see the members of this website acting like that all the time, lol. And in real life, women are these little shy creatures who wouldn't say boo to a goose. It's an offensive stereotype really HerBeX.

"And expect the bastard to listen to us, not get angry with us, and stop just because we've said so? When he's made it abundantly clear, that he doesn't give a fuck whether we want it or not?"

Inm your example, he's just a guy you decided you didn't want to fuck. How is he suddenly a bastard who doesn't care if you want it or not. If he's not got consent he should make sure. But consetn can be obvious without it being verbal. I keep saying the same thing but some people are determined to miss the point.

Now answer my question HerBex - do you think a man and a woman, even in a ltr or marriage, need to establish verbal consent every single time?

no, presumably what MS is saying is that we should all say no, and any situation where we have not is therefore not rape. Is that it? Brilliant.

that should have been, Or their care.

Besides, if you are going to insert your penis into a person, it would be polite to ask first. I mean, you ask before you enter their house. Or their care. Or if you make yourself a drink. You should ask before inserting anything into a person.

So if only women would say no, all rapists would stop raping them.

That's brilliant MS - why don't you do a campaign saying to women: "Just say no. Then men will stop raping you".

Because rapists are famous for respecting the word no, aren't they.

And again, why are you so keen on the onus for preventing rape, being with women, not men?

but we have answered your questions - some women do not feel capable of saying no, and things happen to them that shouldn't. And you're ignoring what we tell you because it does not suit the story you are telling.

Give us an example of an "obvious" non verbal consent? How obvious should you be with a one night stand? Where is the clear line for all the stupid people who aren't very empathic and can't read people well at all?

No, it's not a circle because nobody is answering my questions. I'm tired of repeating them, they are the things in previous posts that end with a question mark.

Well disagreeing with it isn't the same as it not being true MS.

Women who outright refuse to do things they don't want to, are seen as aggressive bitches. We bend over backwards to be tactful about suggesting things, hedging our language around with "do you mind if...d'you think it's a good idea to... what about... if you don't mind... what d'you think of ..." etc.

And when we're in a situation where to our incredulity and consternation, we realise that this guy we don't want to fuck us, is going to fuck us, we're supposed to throw all that conditioning off and state calmly: "actually I don't want this, please stop now." And expect the bastard to listen to us, not get angry with us, and stop just because we've said so? When he's made it abundantly clear, that he doesn't give a fuck whether we want it or not?

Anyone who comes out with this crap obviously knows nothing whatsoever about what it's like to be raped. Why don't you listen to women who have been MS, rather than telling them what they're capable of doing in that situation?

now you are just going round in circles, you've argued yourself round in a huge circle. No protection for anyone who isn't as capable as you are of saying no?

Say no thanks unclefest.

and if certain men lack the 'common sense' (politeness) to ask, what does one do?

I read the link, yes. I disagree that woman are conditioned all their lives not to say 'no' because most are capable of doing just that. Men on the other hand, should indeed be told they must get consent to proceed with sex, especially with a new partner. Common sense, and I've made that clear before. It does not always have to be verbal, as some people are/were saying. Hope that's clear. It does not always have to be verbal, every single time, in a ltr or a marriage and not even in a one night stand if the women is giving off obvious non-verbal signs of consent, as some people here are/were saying.

Yes, in fact, that link was a good eye opener. Why don't you read it MarySue? One thing is clear, and that's that you've never been unfortunate enough to feel not in control of a situation. Which is luck, not something you've achieved through your own cunning and cleverness. TRY to put yourself in the shoes of someone more vulnerable and less vocal for five minutes?

MarySue, in an ongoing relationship it is easier to rely on non-verbal signs because you should have a good understanding of your partner. For a first sexual encounter, I think it is best for men to seek verbal consent (or if they don't the non-verbal clues should be unmistakable). Any decent man would be happy to do so as it would mean he could avoid raping someone. A selfish man, completely lacking in empathy, should still do so to avoid a situation where he is later accused of rape.

Why are you so determined to put the onus on women to say No, MarySue, when we are conditioned all our lives, not to say No outright in that way? Why are you so determined to make it a woman's responsibility to stop what is happening, rather than a man's responsibility to ensure that what is happening is wanted?

Have you read the link I posted?

I am so screwed up from experiences of childhood that I felt I had no right to say no. I am not sure I am a good case in point. I feel I should have been asked and taken better care of.

"Why are you so hung up on verbal consent? I don't think it always has to be verbal. Definitely once you know someone, are shagging regularly, it is much easier to communicate consent."

That's what I'm saying. But some people here are saying verbal consent is necessary every time. That's what I'm disagreeing with.

"what about when you're a young woman (20), started out the evening being up for a dance and a snog, wanted to go back with the chap to his flat, ended up feeling that you did not want full sex but felt somehow that you had led them on and they had a right to expect it. This happened to me. Looking back I see they had no right to, I think they saw that too, but for whatever reason, I wish to hell they had given me the get out clause of saying 'are you sure this is what you want' because I would have said no."

That would have been ideal, if you'd been asked. But you could have said no. Some people here would say that lack of verbal consent makes the man a rapist. Do you agree?

I'm really lost now. Is your gripe with the bit of law that says the defendant must have sought consent? Or the idea you have picked up from somewhere that some people think verbal consent is a good idea every time, I can't see how the latter affects you?

If someone is holding you firmly, touching you in spite of your lack of response to him, not looking at you to confirm you?re happy with what he?s doing, ignoring your obvious lack of participation in what's happening here, you already know, that saying no isn?t going to stop him. If you do say no, you risk bringing the fact that he is fucking raping you out into the open ? and that might be more dangerous than just submitting to rape, because he might start hurting us in other ways.. That?s why women don?t say no Mary Sue. And also, take a look at this, it discusses how women are conditioned not to say no right from every experience they ever have and then suddenly, in a situation where their bodily integrity is being threatened, they are expected to throw off a lifetime of conditioning and act as though all that conditioning didn?t happen.

Brilliant explanation for those who don?t want to get it as well as for those who already do but need it articulating clearly