The Myths About Women Who "Cry Rape"

holyshmoley, there's no point arguing politely with someone who has a different agenda to what most people of goodwill have - thrashing out the arguments, learning, tightening up their views and arguments. It is very clear that that's not what Mary has been doing, if you look at his/ her posts carefully, you'll notice that s/he is very careful to try and promote the idea that women are responsible for stopping rape while trying to pretend that s/he doesn't believe that by acknowledging that men shouldn't rape unconscious, drunk or in some other way incapacitated woman.

But s/he steadfastly refuses to address the argument about the majority of rapes (where women aren't unconscious etc.) and the social context in which they happen. S/he even denied that women who assert their wants and needs, are seen as aggressive, something even most non-feminists acknowledge. That is not someone who is interested in being educated, that's someone who has a rape apologist agenda and we are under no obligation not to call that out.

good analogy Karma

holy, I think you have to call a spade a spade. If people don't like being called rape apologists they should think what it is about their views that leads people to that conclusion. To do anything else would be like trying to launch an anti drink driving campaign but trying not to upset people who are only a little bit over the limit and pretend it doesn't apply to them.

holyShmoley - bit of background here - the person getting it in the neck for being a rape apologist is not a normal poster who might actually be persuaded, but someone who shares a number of characteristics with an MRA troll.

we have learnt from experience on here that there is a big difference between the people who come on with genuine questions and misconceptions and people who come on to cause trouble, and there is a lot of point in being gentle and tactful with the former but with the latter it is better to say it how it is.

Bullet, so sorry

Peanut, glad you feel strong enough to stay. When I first came on here (mostly lurking, rarely posting) I always wished I could be one of the angry feminists rather just wanting to cry every time I thought about this stuff. It's hard to stay unemotional when it's so close to you. It's only now I'm starting to get angry but I still feel the tears coming every now and then.

Hear hear Peanut

Thank you guys!

Glad to hear your staying Peanut, we need people like you (and so many others on the feminist board) on here! You give the silent people a voice.

Sorry to hear that Bullet sneaks in another hug

Thanks HerBeX

I had to see them every weekday for 2 years, my school wouldn't exclude them because I didn't press charges. That was the kick in the teeth.

Bullet, so sorry.

LOL at that site with its strapline:

"curing feminist indoctrination"

It's views from people like MarySue which made me drop the charges when I was assaulted.

I didn't want to be torn apart in court, I was already torn enough in my head.

[peeps round the door to say thanks to all those arguing this and gives some kind of supporting gesture definitely not non-MN hugs to those that have given personal stories. I hear you.]

We're not all misinterpreting what he's saying.

He was hoping to get his rape apologist arguments on to the feminist board of mumsnet without being strenuously challenged.

Ain't gonna happen buddy.

MarySue, I'm really sorry if we are all misinterpreting what you are saying, but to be fair, we are all reading the same things and coming to the same conclusions about what you are saying.

For me, the reason why you are a rape apologist is because when unclefest described a scenario where she gave non-verbal signals that she wasn't consenting, your answer was that she should have said "no". Responsibility should be on the man to establish consent (and in law it is), not the woman to deny it. To put it down to women makes women's bodies a free for all.

If you pretend that a simple solution to being raped, is for a woman to say No to a rapist, then you are a rape apologist. If you ignore the context in which rape occurs in our society, then you are a rape apologist. If you pretend that social conditioning has no impact on how people might behave in a rape scenario, then you are a rape apologist.

If you don't want to be called a rape apologist, stop making rape apologist arguments and engage honestly with the things that women who know much more and much better about rape than you do, are telling you about it.

Yes, it's always worth arguing with rape apologists and MRA's Lenin, because people with genuinely open hearts and minds, who genuinely want to learn, will be reading. And some of them will re-think basic assumptions as a result of this debate.