The Myths About Women Who "Cry Rape"

so laws should protect the "majority", rather than everyone?

"Seeing as how he is going to be the person who enters another person?s body for chrissake, the onus is on him to be sure that he?s welcome there."

I quite agree HerBeX. But verbal consent, every time, is not needed. And I doubt anyone here requires it or gets it with their partners every time either.

I do think I am speaking on behalf of the majority of women when I say we can give obvious consent without a verbal agreement every single time, and we don't want a man to have to ask every time. Maybe I'm wrong - but even so, the majority cannot force a minority to change either, so what is point? Feel free to pose the question outside of this section or link to a poll to prove the point either way.

what about when you're a young woman (20), started out the evening being up for a dance and a snog, wanted to go back with the chap to his flat, ended up feeling that you did not want full sex but felt somehow that you had led them on and they had a right to expect it. This happened to me. Looking back I see they had no right to, I think they saw that too, but for whatever reason, I wish to hell they had given me the get out clause of saying 'are you sure this is what you want' because I would have said no.

""Tell me some situations where a woman can't say 'no, I don't want to' and shut it down right there."
Erm, when she's had too much to drink? When she's frightened?"

That's been covered, read my previous posts. In those situations its rape, or why is she frightened?"

Previous bad sexual experiences.

I agree with Herb and Karma.

Why are you so hung up on verbal consent? I don't think it always has to be verbal. Definitely once you know someone, are shagging regularly, it is much easier to communicate consent.

You said you found it difficult to understand why some women might not be able to say no. Can you not imagine the sort of sexual or personal history that might have affected, I don't know how to put it, the ability to set boundaries, the sense that you have some say over what happens to your body?

Oh MarySue, how funny you are with your ?we can say no nonsense. We forsooth. If you knew anything about what it is like to be coerced into sex, you wouldn?t be lecturing women about the ?frozen with fear? scenario, because although that?s a scenario men understand, that isn?t actually what I was describing ?I talked about not being able to believe that this was happening to you, which is quite different.

And as for this ?how hard is it to say no?? bollocks ? well how hard is it to ask if this is OK? The problem with how hard is it to say no, is that you are putting the onus on women to make it clear that they don?t want sex, rather than on men to ensure that the woman they are with actively wants sex. Seeing as how he is going to be the person who enters another person?s body for chrissake, the onus is on him to be sure that he?s welcome there.

No MarySue, not every woman must change the way she has sex, but every man. It is up to men to seek consent and as much as anything they should do it to protect themselves from accusations of rape.

I think in marriage it is a slightly different matter. I suppose once you're married, or have been with someone for a long time, you are far more attuned to your partner. I normally know when she doesn't want and she does. If I'm not sure, I will check (probably in a joking mannor).

But even in marriage, where is the line? Is it that, "she's my wife, she can give it any time I want." Probably not.

Of course, if you're in a normal relationship, you should feel more comfortable saying no than if it is someone you don't know very well.

"Tell me some situations where a woman can't say 'no, I don't want to' and shut it down right there."
Erm, when she's had too much to drink? When she's frightened?"

That's been covered, read my previous posts. In those situations its rape, or why is she frightened?

Let me get this straight. Some people here are saying verbal consent is required every single time anyone has sex, even in a ltr or marriage, right or wrong? Who agrees?

"Think you are lucky not to automatically understand this MSFTW. I don't know how to begin to spell it out, but am definitely not the only person in the world who finds it all but impossible to say 'no'. "

So every other woman in the world must change the way she has sex and make sure verbal consent is established? Even if it is obvious by non-verbal consent? I don't want to. Nor do other women. It's not going to happen. Perhaps it would be easier for you to get help in how to say no.

"Tell me some situations where a woman can't say 'no, I don't want to' and shut it down right there."
Erm, when she's had too much to drink? When she's frightened?

"I think I speak on behalf of the majority here." . This may be where you are going wrong...

MarySue, lots of people find it difficult to say "no" in other situations let alone one's where they are scared and intimidated by a person who may rape them.

Example:

DH went to dinner with an old friend who ordered a £100 bottle of wine. He did not explicitely ask if this was ok with DH. If he had DH would have said "no" but because he didn't and DH felt socially awkward, he didn't say anthing and split the bill for an expensive bottle of wine he didn't want at the end.

If it can happen in a benign social situation, you can certainly imagine it if you think you might be raped.

"The problem is, MarySue, that once you go down the route of implied consent, where is the line drawn? And although some people could get along fine without a clearly defined line, others would push it as far as they could.

What actions would imply this? If a man and a woman are alone in a house, is that implying? Uh, no. Imagine how awkward that would make the gas man's job. If she's drunk? If she leaves with a man and goes to his house, many would say."

There is no implied consent. In the man's mind there may be hope there will be consent.If she says no at any point, no consent for you sunshine. Simple.

"Was she implying that she intended to have sex with one of us? Actually, no, she wasn't. "

Of course not, is not point.

"you should draw a line under consent and say it has to be had."

Verbal consent, EVERY time? In a marriage or ltr? No thanks, and I think I speak on behalf of the majority here.

Wow. Think you are lucky not to automatically understand this MSFTW. I don't know how to begin to spell it out, but am definitely not the only person in the world who finds it all but impossible to say 'no'. Obviously in the normal course of things it's not a big problem, it's not, as has been pointed out, difficult to tell when someone is and is not up for it without recourse to verbal confirmation either way.

Is it honestly difficult for you to imagine and understand? Or are you enjoying some perverse satisfaction from making people spell it out?

"Non-verbal consent is clear enough for most people and they do not want to always have to get verbal consent." (My bold.)

So remind me, is this about women not wanting to give consent, or men not wanting to get it as far as you're concerned MarySue?

Tbh, very few of my partners have asked for specific verbal consent in the way you are suggesting. But they have said things like "Are you ok?" or "I'm not hurting you am I?" which I would say amounts to seeking consent. I don't understand what is wrong with that?

"I've yet to meet any woman who has frozen in consensual sex... It's a fear response, therefore as a result of intimidation, coercion, or whatever. You really think a rapist would listen to a "no", "not yet" or "sorry, I don't want to do this." OF COURSE SHE DOESN'T WANT TO FUCKING DO IT! IT'S RAPE! Clear? Yes?"

But some people here are saying a woman might freeze in a situation where she has no reason to think the man is a rapist who won't take no for an answer. I said if it's an obvious rape she might freeze. But why would a woman assume a man who is not intimidating or coercing her is going to rape her?

The point is, without that fear due to threats or coercion/obvious rape situation, there is no reason why a woman would be incapable of saying 'no' due to freezing up. Clear?

I don't agree it is a price worth paying. Without it there is no implication that a woman is always up for sex, (I could find many analogies where lack of verbal consent wouldn't imply someone was always up for something I'm sure). Non-verbal consent is clear enough for most people and they do not want to always have to get verbal consent. Someone please address my point that most women do not want to always require verbal consent, and are not going to change their mind because some women think it should be. Never gonna happen.

"Can you see the potential for abuse this has?"

I suppose not. Tell me some situations where a woman can't say 'no, I don't want to' and shut it down right there.

MarySue - I can see that you feel that a woman having to explicitly say "yes" or "I consent" will ruin the moment or whatever. I think that's a price that has to be paid TBH.

If you don't have this, then you make consent the default position, i.e. that a woman is always up for sex unless she makes it unequivocally clear that she isn't. Can you see the potential for abuse this has?

The problem is, MarySue, that once you go down the route of implied consent, where is the line drawn? And although some people could get along fine without a clearly defined line, others would push it as far as they could.

What actions would imply this? If a man and a woman are alone in a house, is that implying? Uh, no. Imagine how awkward that would make the gas man's job. If she's drunk? If she leaves with a man and goes to his house, many would say.

Oh, wait. Past story coming up again ... the first time I met my DP. We worked together in a night club. There were a few of us, and I happened to have offered her a share in the taxi home. Unfortunately we ended up forgetting her stop. So she ended up in my house, together with my brother and next mate who also worked with us and lived a few doors away. Was she implying that she intended to have sex with one of us? Actually, no, she wasn't. She explained to me later on that she felt quite afraid to be stuck with 3 men she didn't know very well.

I have a load more situations like it that were not implying consent. Therefore, just like the black and white line that is drawn at 16 years old, you should draw a line under consent and say it has to be had. If you really want to help to stop the instances of rape, or even alleged "crying rape" (which in man cases, I believe, are down to her being to afraid to say no as she is afraid they will take anyway), then you would agree to a slight break in the flow of things to help get a place where there is an agreed consent.